Wildshaped poison DCs?

[RangerWickett]

Poison DC for creatures is set by 10 + 1/2 hit dice + Con modifier. So if my 15th level druid wildshapes into a huge viper, what's the DC for the poison?

Now, since wildshaping changes your Con, and huge vipers have a Con 13, you'd think it'd be DC 20, but that might be a little strong, since the poison does 1d6 initial and secondary Constitution damage. Huge vipers normally just have 6 hit dice, though, so their save DC is 16.

What about a druid with an amulet of health that gives +6 Constitution (assuming the snake can wear the amulet around its 'neck')? DC 23? A barbarian 1/druid 15 that rages with that amulet? DC 26?

Sure, at 16th level you're facing monsters with +20 Fort saves, but your average Fighter at that level will have a Fort of +15 or so. I'm imagining a crazy barbarian/druid with whirlwind attack in snake form, killing dozens of people.

 

[Perun]

Poison DC for creatures is set by 10 + 1/2 hit dice + Con modifier. So if my 15th level druid wildshapes into a huge viper, what's the DC for the poison?

Now, since wildshaping changes your Con, and huge vipers have a Con 13, you'd think it'd be DC 20, but that might be a little strong, since the poison does 1d6 initial and secondary Constitution damage. Huge vipers normally just have 6 hit dice, though, so their save DC is 16.

What about a druid with an amulet of health that gives +6 Constitution (assuming the snake can wear the amulet around its 'neck')? DC 23? A barbarian 1/druid 15 that rages with that amulet? DC 26?

Sure, at 16th level you're facing monsters with +20 Fort saves, but your average Fighter at that level will have a Fort of +15 or so. I'm imagining a crazy barbarian/druid with whirlwind attack in snake form, killing dozens of people.

I think that's the way it's meant to work. Look at the alternative, DC of what?, 13? 14? For a 15th-level character?

Animals with poison ability are generally rather weak if you take away (or reduce the effectiveness of) their poison.

And the poison DC for a 15th-level druid wildshaped into a huge viper is 18 (half of 15 HD is 7,5, rounded down to 7, and Con 13 has a modifier of +1). Not all that much. My 9th-level human druid has Fort save of +12 right now, +11 without his +1 cloak of resistance, that's Con 16 and Great Fortitude.

 

[Legildur]

(edit to cut out the stupid stuff I wrote)

(2nd edit - after reading the later posts, it seems what I wrote wasn't as stupid as I first thought)

And the idea of a Whirlwinding huge viper is so sad that I want to see it in action!!

 

[Diirk]

Actually I'm not so sure the DC wouldn't just be 14...

"When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows: 10 + 1/2 the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier."

Sure you have 15 HD, but they aren't racial HD, so I don't think they're applicable. Boosting your con would still boost the DC tho. (Animal growth, bear's endurance, rage, inherent boosts etc)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure you have 15 HD, but they aren't racial HD, so I don't think they're applicable. Boosting your con would still boost the DC tho. (Animal growth, bear's endurance, rage, inherent boosts etc)

Exactly.

-Hyp.

 

[Perun]

Actually I'm not so sure the DC wouldn't just be 14...

"When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows: 10 + 1/2 the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier."

Yeah, I forgot about that bit. Mea culpa.

Sure you have 15 HD, but they aren't racial HD, so I don't think they're applicable. Boosting your con would still boost the DC tho. (Animal growth, bear's endurance, rage, inherent boosts etc).

But that'd mean that the final DC would be 11! Base of 10, +1 for Con modifier, and +0 for HD, because there are no racial HD involved...

I'll have to look through the MM for anilas (or plants) with poison ability, and check if any one of them would be too powerful if druid's class HD would count as racial HD for this purpose. I can't think of any such creatures on top of my head, but there might be some that I forgot about.

Regards!

 

[noeuphoria]

Sorry just thinking of GFunk's story hour where his sorc would shapechange into a bodak and kill everything b/c it had to make a dc 28 fort save due to her hd/high charisma. I would say that ruling is inaccurate, it makes shapechange and polymorph ghetto spells. "Finally, I am a great red wyrm, I breathe fire, make that DC 35 reflex save".

"Umm, sorry, it' just 10 plus con for you".

All your supernatural abilities, which is pretty much WHY you take shapechange, would be practically useless.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But that'd mean that the final DC would be 11! Base of 10, +1 for Con modifier, and +0 for HD, because there are no racial HD involved...

The 14 was including the extra 3 for the +6 Con boost item.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would say that ruling is inaccurate...

Hmm? How so? The MM is quite clear that it's racial hit dice that count. A Red Dragon with ten fighter levels has ten fighter hit dice, but those don't increase the DC of his breath weapon. Only his racial hit dice count.

A human with eighteen sorcerer levels polymorphed into a Red Dragon has eighteen sorcerer hit dice, but those don't increase the DC of his breath weapon. Only his racial hit dice count... and he doesn't have any.

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A human with eighteen sorcerer levels polymorphed into a Red Dragon has eighteen sorcerer hit dice, but those don't increase the DC of his breath weapon. Only his racial hit dice count... and he doesn't have any.

Um...I am confused. I would have assumed that you would use the HD of the base creature of that size as listed in the MM. Are you saying you would use 0 for HD?