Wildshaped poison DCs?

[Hypersmurf]

Um...I am confused. I would have assumed that you would use the HD of the base creature of that size as listed in the MM. Are you saying you would use 0 for HD?

I would use the caster's racial hit dice. In the case of a human with sorcerer levels, 0. In the case of an ogre with sorcerer levels, 3.

Shapechange, via Alter Self, has no effect on the caster's hit points.

Now, if you feel that hit points don't change, but hit dice do, then there's more weirdness to contend with.

If I'm an 10th level caster, and I polymorph into a creature with 10 hit dice, then (even though my hit points remain the same) am I considered a creature with 20 hit dice for purposes of resisting spells like Blasphemy?

Am I, in fact, able to cast Alter Self at all, since I cannot assume a form with more than 5 hit dice, and no matter what form I assume, it will have X racial hit dice and 10 class hit dice, exceeding the limit?

Or do the form's hit dice 'overwrite' my normal racial and class hit dice, so that when I Alter Self into a bugbear, I'm now considered a creature with 3 hit dice, instead of 10 (even though my hit points still reflect my 10 sorcerer hit dice)... making me susceptible to Sleep spells, etc?

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, no, I would not advocate changing my Net Total HD. But I would rule that if I Polymorph into, say, an Ogre my Racial HD becomes 4. I have the average physical characteristics of the new form except where specified otherwise.

I would simply allow the HD numbers to overlap.

I do not see it as illogical that a 20th level sorcery might Polymorph into an Ogre and have 4 Racial HD, have 20 HD from being a 20th level sorceror, while still be a creature of exactly 20 HD. It might seem like an odd overlap, but I think it would be more logical than my 20th level sorceror having weaker poison in viper form than an average member of the species. Average characteristics of the species must be what is listed in the MM except when there is a clear conflict.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It might seem like an odd overlap, but I think it would be more logical than my 20th level sorceror having weaker poison in viper form than an average member of the species. Average characteristics of the species must be what is listed in the MM except when there is a clear conflict.

And yet for special abilities based on Cha, which doesn't change by the spell, he could potentially have a far higher DC, since his Cha is likely to be awesome. Why is that logical, but weaker poison not?

The sorcerer in viper form will have, potentially, far more hit points than an average member of the species. Why is that logical, but weaker poison not?

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And yet for special abilities based on Cha, which doesn't change by the spell, he could potentially have a far higher DC, since his Cha is likely to be awesome. Why is that logical, but weaker poison not?

The sorcerer in viper form will have, potentially, far more hit points than an average member of the species. Why is that logical, but weaker poison not?

Because physical racial abilities are generally a physical characteristic of the form. If I take a monkey form that gives a racial bonus to my Climb skill, meager as it is likely to be for a sorceror, I get that bonus do I not? If I become a dwarf, an avrage dwarf, I get a 10 Con base and +2 racial bonus to Con. My Con is 12.

Why should it be different with racial HD?

It is not that I gain 4 racial HD for becoming an ogre. My racial HD stat becomes exactly 4.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is not that I gain 4 racial HD for becoming an ogre. My racial HD stat becomes exactly 4.

And your total hit dice are racial hit dice plus class hit dice... so you're tougher when it comes to resisting Sleep, Color Spray, and Blasphemy. Your minimum hit points regardless of Con damage are 4 points higher.

I don't see how you can say you have racial hit dice without having racial hit dice.

You get the dwarf's Con because it says "You get the Con of the creature". Your Con changes.

It specifically states that your hit points don't change. Hit points are based on your hit dice; if your hit points don't change, your hit dice can't have changed.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

I think that allowing the base creatures hd to shine through when they are called for in abilities is fine.

Going by the wording for both alter self and polymorph it seems ok, as they are both limited by the new 'forms' hd. It is a hard limit that must be observed, so somewhere it is making a difference. The form itself still counts as having its racial hd for abilities, the character himself just doesnt benefit from them in hp, bab, saves, or anything else.

SRD:
Alter self:
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level

Polymorph:
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

Shapechange:
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD).


So it seems that you pick up a form which you then become. It is a new body and it has its own hd obviously. Its abilities are based on those racial hd and shouldnt change, as the form itself is still the same. Just like if that creature gained class levels and those levels do not count for powering up the ability. Same thing.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The form itself still counts as having its racial hd for abilities, the character himself just doesnt benefit from them in hp, bab, saves, or anything else.

Hit points, BAB, and base save bonuses are called out specifically.

But if you count as having the hit dice, then they'll apply to effects that are dependent on how many hit dice you have.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

The abilities count the hd because they come from the creature (the form you have taken) but you do not get the benefit of them. The poison gets its potency from the creatures form and that comes from the creatures racial hd. So it still counts them, you just dont get any other benefits from them.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Of course the solution to "my racial hit-dice abilities suck when I polymorph" is to polymorph your familiar instead, because he's certainly got increase hit dice.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And your total hit dice are racial hit dice plus class hit dice... so you're tougher when it comes to resisting Sleep, Color Spray, and Blasphemy. Your minimum hit points regardless of Con damage are 4 points higher.

I don't see how you can say you have racial hit dice without having racial hit dice.

Why not? As long as my total HD as a creature does not change, where is the problem?

There is no logical requirement that total HD = racial HD + level HD for a physical form that is worn transiently. It is not even necessarily a requirement if the form change is permenant (although the downside would be confusions such as 3.0 Reincarnation).

The purpose of the formula HD = racial HD + level HD is to explain how to generate a monster or character of a given level/CR. It does not need to apply at all to a creature who did not achieve that state from straightforward leveling from birth. Nor need it apply at all if the DM does not care to enumerate the level/CR of the creature in question.

Philosophically, it is question of whether it is logically possible to conceive of racial HD as a stat to which one applies certain mechanics when required. The alternative is to insist that racial HD is a modifier that has no meaning if the formulas are not applied mechanically.