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[Drawmack]

Also, I can cut down on mage bonus feats now that I know that all characters get feats at 3rd, 6th, etc. I'll now have mages get their bonus feats at 2,5,8,11,14,17,20. Arcane secrets at 1,4,7,10,13,16,19. And I suppose Bonus Class Skills at 3,6,9,12,15,18, getting rid of the discovery choice since it seemed to be confusing people anyway.

okay they need five or six feats for spell casting and you're only giving them 7 now, this is much better.

I think the bonus class skills is overpowering when combined with the number of skill points they get. You point to a limited skill list as a balancing factor of high skill points then you give them 6 extra class skill of their choosing with retroactive point spend changes.

How does your mage stack up against a core rogue/sor or bard or fighter/sor?

I think that these are the comparisons that will show the power problems in your class.

Another note you really should use skill points for safe casting instead of just character level + a feat. The reason is this. Burning skill points is continual and must be done at every level in order to gain the safe casting of spells. It's an on going cost instead of a one time cost. The core system does this by giving spell casters many less class abilities then other classes. In your system that is not an option so the cost must come from elsewhere like a skill point expenditure.

I would make safe level relate to ranks in spellcraft and then have channeling make spellcraft a class skill and allow this usage of it. Without that feat you don't acheive the safe level effects of spellcraft even if it is a class skill.

As for the importance of these I think the mage class being over powered is only a small problem as the person using the system can change that easily enough. OTOH I think that the on going cost for spells problem is much worse as it's a core component of the system and much harder to house rule.

I have a question have these rules actually been playtested yet? If not then why don't you do that and see what comes out in the wash.

 

[Zerakon]

I have a question have these rules actually been playtested yet? If not then why don't you do that and see what comes out in the wash.

Going to have the players roll some characters tonight, and hopefully start playtesting these rules next week.

I think the bonus class skills is overpowering when combined with the number of skill points they get. You point to a limited skill list as a balancing factor of high skill points then you give them 6 extra class skill of their choosing with retroactive point spend changes.

You may be right, but over the course of 20 levels, I think gaining 6 class skills is fairly insignificant to other accumulated powers. We'll see.

How does your mage stack up against a core rogue/sor or bard or fighter/sor?

Probably reasonably well; I think a Will Power fighter/mage or rogue/mage will be better than a core equivalent, as that is one of the design goals.

I think that these are the comparisons that will show the power problems in your class.

Why? Because those are the weakest of all core classes? Mutliclassed spellcasters in core are pretty weak. Especially unimpressive is a concept one of my players wanted to play, which is a Paladin/Cleric. It's lame IMO that you track separate spells, it will be better in the WP system where each class is accumulating their "spell battery" and the magic is unified and all comes from the same battery.

Another note you really should use skill points for safe casting instead of just character level + a feat. The reason is this. Burning skill points is continual and must be done at every level in order to gain the safe casting of spells. It's an on going cost instead of a one time cost. The core system does this by giving spell casters many less class abilities then other classes. In your system that is not an option so the cost must come from elsewhere like a skill point expenditure.

I would make safe level relate to ranks in spellcraft and then have channeling make spellcraft a class skill and allow this usage of it. Without that feat you don't acheive the safe level effects of spellcraft even if it is a class skill.

As for the importance of these I think the mage class being over powered is only a small problem as the person using the system can change that easily enough. OTOH I think that the on going cost for spells problem is much worse as it's a core component of the system and much harder to house rule.

Honestly, using Spellcraft skill to cast spells safely doesn't ring well with me. It almost seems too kludgy and take away some interesting choices from characters. I'll ask my players about it tonight...

I'm not fully following what the "on going cost for spells problem" is. I expect to put up a version 0.3 later today, with some significant changes, perhaps you can take a look later and tell me if it still has these problems.

One thing I'm doing differently with v0.3 is because I'm in agreement with willpax that it shouldn't be too common/easy for low-level characters to gain spell use. So I'm going to make <Will Points 8+> one of the prerequisites for Basic Spell Use. That way, only the following characters will have the option to cast spells at level 1:

-mages
-priests
-rogues with Wis 14+, not many of these around
-human rogues with Wis 8+ who take Inner Toughness as their bonus human feat
-fighters/barbarians with Wis 18+
-human fighters/barbarians with Wis 12+ who take Inner Toughness as their bonus human feat

edit: not to mention all of the above will need to have Int 11+ and 2 RANKS of spellcraft as well.

All other characters will have to wait til their level 3 feat to take Basic Spell Use. Even then, some fighter-types won't have reached 8 Will Points by then.

(Channeling is also being modified, so as not to be super critical... it will still be important for pure spellcasters but as you pointed out early, no feat should be something that everyone will want to take.)

Thanks for the feedback. Time for breakfast.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[Drawmack]

I will wait to see v0.3 to comment any further. It sounds like some of your additions are working well.

The ongoing cost is this. You spend a single feat and bang here's 2 or 3 levels of spells the only thing you need to cast them safely is a character level which everyone who lives will achieve. Most skill/feat based systems (i.e. Ken Hoods psionics system) use feats to access basic things and skills to adjuciate an on going cost for the beterment of the things the feats allow you to access. This causes a cost every level or a disadvantage to those not willing to spend the points every level.

 

[Zerakon]

Will Power v0.3 is now available.

Drawmack, you convinced me on the Spellcraft. I'm not being nice and giving Spellcraft as a class skill for anyone with Channeling though, I did more thinking and came to the conclusion that a single-classed Rogue who gets 3rd level spells at 12th level by using 2 or 3 feats and 14 skill points toward Spellcraft is probably not going to be complaining... A charlatan rogue who wants to use spells faster/easier will have to multiclass into mage or priest, and that is a good thing the more I thought about it. So, thanks for making me think hard.

Class comparisons are not in this version, as so many little things changed that it invalidated my previous comparison work and I'm going to have to start over.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[Zerakon]

Will Power v0.4 is now available.

Improvements to this version include:

-Reworked Will Point replenishment, dropping percentage bonuses for a more consistent approach.

-Added some more martial arts feats (Way of Balance, Earth, Fire, Water, Wind) that burn Will Points to allow players to play monkish characters.

-Increased spell levels of healing spells, making feat-based healing more effective than magical healing (at least for the lower-level cure spells).

-Improved Supernatural Healing and added Advanced Empathic Healing for even better non-spell-based healing.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[Drawmack]

I missed v0.3 all together could I get on a mailing list? email the updates to tomender@ptd.net?

 

[Drawmack]

Feats
I haven't looked real closely at the feats yet I'll do that later tonight.

Though something odd with them struck me: spell-use, master gives a character the ability to learn 9th level spells and spell use, supreme gives a character the ability to actually learn 9th level spells. You should split this out ans anyone with master would be stupid not to take supreme under the current system.


Classes
Shouldn't the mage now get spellcraft as a class skill?

Wow the priest gets a lot of stuff you may wish to decrease their skill points to 2+int and decrease their will die to d8.

With the mage if the will point gain is increasing then the hit point loss should too. i.e. 2/1, 4/2, 6/3, etc.

For the Mage's class skill how about making it one that the mage has already spent at least on cross class skill point on. You can't make something a class skill without working at it right?

Overcasting: I think you mean to say X (y+1) where y is the number of ranks below the safe level. This means 1 ranks below = x2, 2 ranks below = x3, 3 ranks below = x4 the way you have it written the numbers would be x2, x4 & x8.

Those are the only things I see on a first read of this draft. This is shapping up very nicely.

I think that under this system almost all mid to high level characters will be able to cast basic spells, but I don't think that's a problem because by that level low level magic will not be unbalancing.

 

[Zerakon]

I missed v0.3 all together could I get on a mailing list? email the updates to tomender@ptd.net?
[/B]

I don't have a mailing list and I anticipate rule changes to slow to almost a halt soon and playtesting will begin. Then we will just change things as we notice problems during playtesting. In any case, I'll keep posting notes here when I make a version change (except the minor changes for typos, etc.) and I'll try to remember to email you as well.

Though something odd with them struck me: spell-use, master gives a character the ability to learn 9th level spells and [snip]

Oops, typo. Fixed for 0.41, thanks.

Shouldn't the mage now get spellcraft as a class skill?

Already does.

Wow the priest gets a lot of stuff you may wish to decrease their skill points to 2+int and decrease their will die to d8.

Yeah, I could see dropping their their skills to 2+, but I want their Will Die to be the best of the classes. Even better than the mage at low levels, the only way a mage can pass a priest is by delving into arcane secrets. (I actually want to put secret back to being a choice, call it discovery and you can take an arcane secret or something else, like skill focus perhaps. Arcane secrets would tempt mages, Skill Focus would be better for sages who prefer sticking to mundane knowledge.) To recap, I want priests to have more will than sages.

With the mage if the will point gain is increasing then the hit point loss should too. i.e. 2/1, 4/2, 6/3, etc.

Yeah, I could see that. With the d6 Hit Die that will work nicely, a mage will start out with slightly more HPs than a core Sorcerer but will start to lose that advantage if they delve into the arcane too much. The bigger HD was intended to make them a little tougher at low levels anyway.

For the Mage's class skill how about making it one that the mage has already spent at least on cross class skill point on. You can't make something a class skill without working at it right?

Yeah, I guess, but you could argue that they were just working on it during training for that level. I'd tend to think it's best to keep it simple and elegant.

Overcasting: I think you mean to say X (y+1) where y is the number of ranks below the safe level. This means 1 ranks below = x2, 2 ranks below = x3, 3 ranks below = x4 the way you have it written the numbers would be x2, x4 & x8.

I wrote "the character suffers a x2 spell burn multiplier for each rank she has below the safe level. Use standard d20 rules for combining multipliers if necessary. For example, a character 2 ranks below the safe level takes x3 burn." Isn't that the right way to phrase it, based on the standard d20 rules for combining multipliers? Giving two x2 multipliers makes the result x3, not x4, I thought.

Those are the only things I see on a first read of this draft. This is shapping up very nicely.

Yeah, now that I've implemented the changes you requested.

Seriously, thanks for your feedback, I think I'm going to have fun playing with these rules once they are refined a bit more.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[Drawmack]

Already does.

I ment, shouldn't the priest get spellcraft as a class skill?

Yeah, I could see dropping their their skills to 2+, but I want their Will Die to be the best of the classes. Even better than the mage at low levels, the only way a mage can pass a priest is by delving into arcane secrets. (I actually want to put secret back to being a choice, call it discovery and you can take an arcane secret or something else, like skill focus perhaps. Arcane secrets would tempt mages, Skill Focus would be better for sages who prefer sticking to mundane knowledge.) To recap, I want priests to have more will than sages.

That makes sense and I like the arcane secret versus skill focus.

Yeah, I guess, but you could argue that they were just working on it during training for that level. I'd tend to think it's best to keep it simple and elegant.

Not a big deal. This one was more just personal preference anyway.

I wrote "the character suffers a x2 spell burn multiplier for each rank she has below the safe level. Use standard d20 rules for combining multipliers if necessary. For example, a character 2 ranks below the safe level takes x3 burn." Isn't that the right way to phrase it, based on the standard d20 rules for combining multipliers? Giving two x2 multipliers makes the result x3, not x4, I thought.

You're probably right, I remember there being something about stacking multipliers that makes the mathematician in me scream in agony.

Yeah, now that I've implemented the changes you requested.

Now you didn't implement all of them just the important ones.

Seriously, thanks for your feedback, I think I'm going to have fun playing with these rules once they are refined a bit more.

No problem. I personally don't play with skills and feats systems but I love to design and help design them.

 

[Zerakon]

Are these martial feats balanced?

Well, for v0.42 I'm trying to tweak the martial Way feats so that they are reasonably balanced. For those (most) of you who haven't downloaded the rules, the concept is that in the Will Power system, each character gains Will Points at each level; these Will Points are the mystical strength of that person - used to power up any of the triad of mystical mechanics: heroism, supernatural powers, or magic.

There is no Will Power monk class, instead any character can choose martial feats that give monkish powers. Each of the Way feats allows a character to spend Will Points to activate the corresponding power.

I'm finding it interesting that a monkish fighter will accumulate these feats faster but have less Will Points to spend on using them, because of a d4 Will Die. A monkish priest will attain them more slowly but be able to use them more often because of a d10 Will Die.

Anyway, here are the 5 Will Point-based martial feats, and I'm wondering if anyone can spot any immediate balance problems within them. In other words, if you are given a limited supply of Will Points to activate them, do any of them seem like they wouldn't be worth activating?

WAY OF BALANCE [general][fighter]
You are a master of the elements and have improved powers in all of the martial skills.
Prerequisites: Wis 15, Way of Earth, Way of Fire, Way of Water, Way of Wind.
Benefit: When you have Way of Balance, your skill in each of the four elemental (Earth, Fire, Water, and Wind) way feats is improved. See each of those feats for details.

WAY OF EARTH [general][fighter]
You are trained in a strange form of martial arts defense, using your mental fortitude to increase your ability to deflect damage in combat.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Toughness, Level 4+.
Benefit: When wearing no armor or shield, you may, as a free action, burn Nx2 Will Points to gain DR N/+1 for one round. You can only burn a number of Will Points equal to your level divided by 2. So, at 4th-7th levels, you can burn 2 Will Points to gain DR 1/+1, at 8th-11th levels, you can burn up to 4 Will Points to gain DR 2/+1, etc.
Special: If you have Way of Balance, you gain an additional DR bonus equal to your level divided by 5 when activating Way of Earth.

WAY OF FIRE [general][fighter]
You are trained in a strange form of martial arts attack, using your mental fortitude to increase your ability to deliver damage with your unarmed attacks.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When wearing no armor or shield and holding no weapon, you can burn 1 Will Point to use Way of Fire as a full attack. Your unarmed damage raises to 1d6 + your level divided by four. You gain additional unarmed attacks faster, based on your primary attack bonus minus 4. For example, if your base attack bonus is +5, your unarmed attack bonus is +5/+1. If your base attack bonus is +10, your unarmed attack bonus is +10/+6/+2.
Special: If you have Way of Balance, when you activate Way of Fire, you may burn 2 additional Will Points to perform a flurry of fire, and gain an extra attack at your full attack bonus.

WAY OF WATER [general][fighter]
You are trained in a strange form of martial arts defense, using your mental fortitude to increase your ability to avoid blows in combat.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Dodge.
Benefit: When wearing no armor or shield, you may, as a free action, burn 1 Will Point to add your Wisdom modifier to your Armor Class for one round.
Special: If you have Way of Balance, you gain an additional Armor Class bonus equal to your level divided by 5 when activating Way of Water.

WAY OF WIND [general][fighter]
You can temporarily increase your speed using your training in a strange martial art.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Run.
Benefit: When wearing no armor or shield and not encumbered with medium or heavy load, you may activate Way of Wind as a free action to increase your base movement rate for one round. Your options:
Burn 1 Will Point for a 5’ increase.
Burn 2 Will Points for a 10’ increase.
Burn 4 Will Points for a 15’ increase.
Burn 8 Will Points for a 20’ increase.
Special: If you have Way of Balance, double all movement gains when activating Way of Wind.

Note that the current design allows Will Power martial fighters to activate these powers even while holding a weapon, but not with armor or shield. That is, you could activate Way of Wind and Way of Water and attack with a two-handed sword. Is that too powerful, I wonder?

-- Zerakon the Game Mage