Will the complexity pendulum swing back?

[Reynard]

With a couple of notable exceptions, such as Pathfinder 2E, it seems like the TTRPG industry has been trending toward simplicity for years now. But with the recent releases of Daggerheart and Draw Steel -- medium and heavy crunch system respectively -- maybe the pendulum is swing back toward at least some degree of system complexity and crunch.

What do you think? Is crunch coming back? And is that desirable, in your opinion?

 

[Morrus]

A rules-heavy game requires a lot of work, development, and playtesting—which often translate into resources and money. They’re also typically bigger in terms of page count, necessitating more art, more writing, more editing, more layout. Crunchy games are resource intensive to produce—and they’re very difficult to make. Plus, all these factors make them more expensive to buy.

There are a lot of economic and practical forces on the production side driving towards lighter games before you even start to address it from the consumer preference angle—which is another kettle of fish entirely (and I’m sure plenty of people will expand on that here).

 

[Reynard]

A rules-heavy game requires a lot of work, development, and playtesting—which often translate into resources and money. They’re also typically bigger in terms of page count, necessitating more art, more writing, more editing, more layout. Crunchy games are resource intensive to produce—and they’re very difficult to make. Plus, all these factors make them more expensive to buy.

There are a lot of economic and practical forces on the production side driving towards lighter games before you even start to address it from the consumer preference angle—which is another kettle of fish entirely (and I’m sure plenty of people will expand on that here).

That is an excellent point. Thank you.

That said, TTRPG rulebooks are significantly, almost ridiculously, bigger than necessary from a rules presentation perspective. There are many very complex noardgames, for example, that still manage to contain their rules in dozens rather than hundreds of pages. Of course TTRPGs aren't board games, and there are reasons (including simple industry inertia) why TTRPG rulebooks are so oversized. And we should note there are lots of simple games that have high page counts because the designers and authors decided to put effort and attention into non-rules areas.

 

[Deset Gled]

I kinda hope crunch comes back. I like more complex games. I'm a 3.Xe fan.

My personal projection, though, is that we'll eventually see a schism between pen-and-paper TTRPGs and VTT RPGs. VTT RPGs already make it much easier to handle complexities like exact distance measuring and handling weight/encumberence. Eventually, someone will figure out how to capitalize on that and will make crunchy RPGs that are designed specifically for VTT play. It could help cut down on perceived complexity and flatten learning curves for players while simultaneously making prep easier for DMs. Meanwhile, I expect people who play pen-and-paper style are going to stick with the benefits of the newer generations of less complex games.

The next big question is: where might D&D land in such a market? Straddling both sides with multiple product lines? Relegated to pen-and-paper by a rabid fandom? Focusing on VTTs and giving up on the old school players?

 

[Scribe]

What do you think? Is crunch coming back? And is that desirable, in your opinion?

Yes I think so, desirable, sure more options I guess. But as to why.

VTT RPGs already make it much easier to handle complexities like exact distance measuring and handling weight/encumberence. Eventually, someone will figure out how to capitalize on that and will make crunchy RPGs that are designed specifically for VTT play. It could help cut down on complexity for players while simultaneously making prep easier for DMs. Meanwhile, I expect people who play pen-and-paper style are going to stick with the benefits of the newer generations of less complex games.

I think this is part of it. The increase in VTT to mitigate how much of the crunch is actually felt or managed by DM/Players.

I really dont think that the 3.5/PF1 level systems are a path forward for Table Top, and the general gamer population.

 

[Reynard]

I kinda hope crunch comes back. I like more complex games. I'm a 3.Xe fan.

My personal projection, though, is that we'll eventually see a schism between pen-and-paper TTRPGs and VTT RPGs. VTT RPGs already make it much easier to handle complexities like exact distance measuring and handling weight/encumberence. Eventually, someone will figure out how to capitalize on that and will make crunchy RPGs that are designed specifically for VTT play. It could help cut down on perceived complexity and flatten learning curves for players while simultaneously making prep easier for DMs. Meanwhile, I expect people who play pen-and-paper style are going to stick with the benefits of the newer generations of less complex games.

The next big question is: where might D&D land in such a market? Straddling both sides with multiple product lines? Relegated to pen-and-paper by a rabid fandom? Focusing on VTTs and giving up on the old school players?

I agree and am a big fan of the idea that we can leverage VTTs to make some games more detailed and granular without slowing down play.

 

[Corinnguard]

It's certainly possible that the pendulum is making its' way to some degree of complexity and crunch. However, it's hard to say if the releases of those two RPGs are the start of a trend that will lead to RPGs being like they were before 5e. It could be some RPG companies are testing the waters to see if today's audience is at all interested in going back to complex and crunchier RPGs.

Level Up: A5e is a tad more complex and crunchier than Original 5e, but lightly so. 4e looked like it went slightly overboard IMO and overdid it. Ditto PF2.

Is it desirable? After playing 5e for over 4 years and collecting A5e for just as long, I desire some crunch and some complexity in an RPG. I like 5e, but I have felt that it needed something more. This is where A5e comes in for me. A5e addresses several things that 5e has only gotten around to more or less. The three pillars of gameplay (Combat, Exploration, Social Interaction). The Martial/Spellcaster gap (by giving the martial classes access to their own brand of magic, the numerous Combat traditions.). A more complex character origin in the form of Heritages, Cultures, Backgrounds and Destinies.

I don't see myself being interested in an RPG that is too complex and too crunchy. Role-playing in an RPG needs some wiggle room in order for it to be fun. Too much of either one can also put a crimp on creativity too.

 

[MGibster]

What do you think? Is crunch coming back? And is that desirable, in your opinion?

Hmmm.....I hear something lurking in the shadows. I'm going to go check it out. Oh, my God! IT'S GURPS!!!! Oh, boy! I thought I was a goner, but GURPS just handed me three six-sided die and wished me luck.

It's odd, but I used to enjoy a lot of crunchy games when I was younger. Not just with my RPGs, but games like Car Wars, Star Fleet Battles, and many others I can't even recall right now. While I have a soft spot in my heart for them, I don't really want to play them. I last ran a GURPS campaign in 2005 and it was more work than I wanted to put in. D&D 5th edition is about as complicated as I want to get these days.

But what I want and what's popular aren't necessarily synonymous. Though my tastes should be the gold standard of course. Obviously there are some gamers who really do like their crunch. GURPS fans are often fanatical...wait a minute. I just realized what fan was short for. Okay, fans are fanatical about what they're fans of. I could certainly see crunchy games making a comeback. There are trends to just about everything and they ebb and flow throughout the years.

There are a lot of economic and practical forces on the production side driving towards lighter games before you even start to address it from the consumer preference angle—which is another kettle of fish entirely (and I’m sure plenty of people will expand on that here).

Thanks for giving us the perspective from the publishing side.

 

[Reynard]

I don't see myself being interested in an RPG that is too complex and too crunchy. Role-playing in an RPG needs some wiggle room in order for it to be fun. Too much of either one can also put a crimp on creativity too.

I have never been convinced by the argument that rules complexities impacts "roleplaying" at all.

 

[zottel]

Regarding crunchy RPGs and VTT doing the heavy lifting. Does playing in that manner scratch the itch regarding heavy crunch? Because to me it seems kinda pointless to have lot's of rules and simply have the computer handle them. I understand that is simply a preference thing.
To me, if a VTT does a lot of things on it's own, it removes me from the game. I understand it is convenient, but at some point you hardly interact with the game itself anymore.