Will the Domain-oriented Cleric in Essentials...

[Evilhalfling]

I would be happy to have more essential clerics.
One of my biggest problems with the 4e cleric is not in stats but in flavor.

Clerics of different gods were too similar - being able to take 1 or 2 mediocre feats, if you want to, did little to change this. Since I use homebrewed gods, the essential builds are a huge step up from the dragon magazine channel divinity articles.

If there were 6 or so essential cleric builds, I would make the PHB builds specific to an individual god as well and be perfectly happy.

and please enough with the "must be a follower of [god] " feats or items
they need to make "must have [domain] instead."

 

[DracoSuave]

I would be happy to have more essential clerics.
One of my biggest problems with the 4e cleric is not in stats but in flavor.

Clerics of different gods were too similar - being able to take 1 or 2 mediocre feats, if you want to, did little to change this. Since I use homebrewed gods, the essential builds are a huge step up from the dragon magazine channel divinity articles.

If there were 6 or so essential cleric builds, I would make the PHB builds specific to an individual god as well and be perfectly happy.

and please enough with the "must be a follower of [god] " feats or items
they need to make "must have [domain] instead."

I disagree.

The warpriest is a very inefficient way to present different cleric builds.. each build requires a complete list of at-will and encounter powers, and all the other doodads that go with it.

The regular cleric puts the onus on personalizing the cleric on the player, then offers menus of choices. If flavor matching mechanics is important to the player, then they'll take the various powers that correspond to his exact flavor. Two clerics might take spiritual weapon, but the cleric of war might take another prayer that makes the allies hit harder, while a cleric of the forge might take another prayer that makes allies tougher.

Contrast that to where the warpriest has the choices sun, storm, and earth, with little subtlety involved in the differences.

 

[Zaphling]

I just don't like the face that Warpriests get all shield profs directly at character creation. They must errata the STR cleric to have the shields prof also to balance things out. Without this, melee clerics tend to go Warpriest. Unless their race has bonus to STR and not WIS.

 

[DracoSuave]

I just don't like the face that Warpriests get all shield profs directly at character creation. They must errata the STR cleric to have the shields prof also to balance things out. Without this, melee clerics tend to go Warpriest. Unless their race has bonus to STR and not WIS.

or they like choosing their powers or multiclassing or hybriding or righteous brand or clerics not of kord, pelor, or moradin

 

[darkwing]

I played a Sun Warpriest in D&D Encounters and I liked it a lot. Almost all of my powers had rider effects. Other than Healing word and a couple of Utilities you actually have to attack something in order to buff your allies. Flavor wise this works out pretty well. The cool part is the bonuses even triggered on misses (they were all "Effect: something something" rather than "Hit: something something") so you were always effective as a leader as long as you were in melee combat.

Now the traditional Battle Cleric probably still has its place for those that like to customize, but for anyone that just wants the flavor of a Cleric who buffs friends while pounding on enemies with a melee weapon, without having to worry about which attributes to focus on or which powers to take, the Warpriest is the way to go.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I disagree.

The warpriest is a very inefficient way to present different cleric builds.. each build requires a complete list of at-will and encounter powers, and all the other doodads that go with it.

The regular cleric puts the onus on personalizing the cleric on the player, then offers menus of choices. If flavor matching mechanics is important to the player, then they'll take the various powers that correspond to his exact flavor. Two clerics might take spiritual weapon, but the cleric of war might take another prayer that makes the allies hit harder, while a cleric of the forge might take another prayer that makes allies tougher.

Contrast that to where the warpriest has the choices sun, storm, and earth, with little subtlety involved in the differences.

Well, I sort of agree with you, but OTOH the DP domains seem both glued on and fairly superficial. In a lot of ways you can't really do enough to make different clerics distinctive. The CD feats are mostly lackluster and in any case mechanically there is not usually a lot of point to having more than one. The domain feats are somewhat thematic but again only make a rather minor difference, plus 2/3 of them are grossly inferior to the rest and thus not really worth bothering with.

The very existence of the Sehanine article actually kind of illustrates the limitations of the cleric in this regard. It required a rather significant article, probably as much material as an Essentials Warpriest domain requires (actually IIRC the Earth domain article is considerably shorter than the Sehanine one).

I think things like weapon and armor proficiencies, skills, etc really should be open for customization too though. Neither approach is perfect. The Warpriests are somewhat formulaic but more strongly themed, the PHB1 cleric lacks the depth of theme but is certainly more customizable.

I'm not sure about your theory on power picking. It is certainly a precise reading of the rule, but I've also seen statements that appear to contradict that interpretation. Those may be mistakes though, you can't always trust various blurbs by devs online. The only thing that goes against you a bit there is the question of WHY a power that is strictly presented as a class feature and immutable would have a level and be labeled as a class power instead of the more standard "feature" designation that has been generally used in the past. I think we'll have to see an FAQ or something like that before it is actually clear what was intended.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not sure about your theory on power picking. It is certainly a precise reading of the rule, but I've also seen statements that appear to contradict that interpretation.

Random people on the internet don't count as a printed rules source. I've seen statements online that claim Combat Challenge is an opportunity attack, that doesn't even make that sensible.

The point is, sun clerics cannot pick storm powers. There's a distinction there, it tells you -exactly- what powers you get, and what powers those replace.

Example: From Level 17

'You gain an encounter attack power associated with your domain power (storm, page 109, or sun, page 115). This new power replaces the encounter power you gained at 3rd level from your domain.'

This is -very- explicit. You get the one power written on that page, and it replaces no other power but the one you gained at 3rd.

There's NO choosing of a power involved, no more than a Bear Shaman can choose anything but Spirit Shield, or that a Fey Warlock chooses Eyebite.

Oh, hey, Eyebite has a level involved too... why would that be?

Those may be mistakes though, you can't always trust various blurbs by devs online. The only thing that goes against you a bit there is the question of WHY a power that is strictly presented as a class feature and immutable would have a level and be labeled as a class power instead of the more standard "feature" designation that has been generally used in the past.

This precedent already exists. Those powers are selectable by any character that has the eligibility to select powers of that class, type, and level. A hybrid Avenger/Cleric is allowed to take warpriest powers because he has the right to pick them. A human laser cleric can take one of the at-wills because he has the right to choose any cleric at-will power. Every non-warpriest cleric can choose one of the domain powers because of they are cleric powers with the appropriate type and level.

This precedent was originally set by human warlocks and half-elf paladin/warlocks-- humans have the ability to select their third at-will, and that at-will can be any warlock at-will, even tho their other two are decided for them by pact. (exactly like a warpriest)

Shamans are the same way, one of their at-will powers is selected for them by their spirit boon. They simply can't switch it out for another at-will power.

Why are essentials characters, who are even MORE rigid in power selection, suddenly ignoring this precedent? Where is it written they get to do that?

It isn't.

I think we'll have to see an FAQ or something like that before it is actually clear what was intended.

I don't think you need a FAQ to institute a rule that's been in existance since the PHB1 and has never changed. Unless you have a specific exception, if your class feature tells you to take a specific power, you take that specific power. Even if that power has a level.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Random people on the internet don't count as a printed rules source. I've seen statements online that claim Combat Challenge is an opportunity attack, that doesn't even make that sensible.

The point is, sun clerics cannot pick storm powers. There's a distinction there, it tells you -exactly- what powers you get, and what powers those replace.

Example: From Level 17

'You gain an encounter attack power associated with your domain power (storm, page 109, or sun, page 115). This new power replaces the encounter power you gained at 3rd level from your domain.'

This is -very- explicit. You get the one power written on that page, and it replaces no other power but the one you gained at 3rd.

There's NO choosing of a power involved, no more than a Bear Shaman can choose anything but Spirit Shield, or that a Fey Warlock chooses Eyebite.

Oh, hey, Eyebite has a level involved too... why would that be?



This precedent already exists. Those powers are selectable by any character that has the eligibility to select powers of that class, type, and level. A hybrid Avenger/Cleric is allowed to take warpriest powers because he has the right to pick them. A human laser cleric can take one of the at-wills because he has the right to choose any cleric at-will power. Every non-warpriest cleric can choose one of the domain powers because of they are cleric powers with the appropriate type and level.

This precedent was originally set by human warlocks and half-elf paladin/warlocks-- humans have the ability to select their third at-will, and that at-will can be any warlock at-will, even tho their other two are decided for them by pact. (exactly like a warpriest)

Shamans are the same way, one of their at-will powers is selected for them by their spirit boon. They simply can't switch it out for another at-will power.

Why are essentials characters, who are even MORE rigid in power selection, suddenly ignoring this precedent? Where is it written they get to do that?

It isn't.



I don't think you need a FAQ to institute a rule that's been in existance since the PHB1 and has never changed. Unless you have a specific exception, if your class feature tells you to take a specific power, you take that specific power. Even if that power has a level.

I'm QUITE familiar with the arguments. In general I'm not faulting your analysis, but with questions like this it is wise to see what the developers have to say officially. There have been plenty of other seemingly clear cut cases where they have ruled differently. It is a matter of what they intended. Yes, there is some precedent for "feature" type powers to have levels attached to them too, WotC hasn't always been 100% consistent from book to book in their editing. I understand that you have great certainty in your opinions, but actually I think people are really going to just have to see on this one. I'd favor your interpretation, but OTOH I'll favor the FAQ even more, IMHO it is not a sure thing how they will decide.

 

[DracoSuave]

There is also absolutely zero precedent for it going the other way, where a feature says 'You get this specific power' and it actually means to choose from a general list.

The only time anything -close- to this happens is when you have alternative class features (Like Combat Agility), or when you have a power that explicitly states 'This can be taken instead of eldritch blast.'

In the case of the domain powers, neither of these cases exist.

I'm not waiting for a FAQ to tell me to do what the rules tell me to do. I don't need the designers to tell me 'You take the power Magic Missile' doesn't mean 'You take any power you like.' And I'm not going to forget that how I've interpreted is the only way the game has handled situations like this since the first Player's Handbook arrived at gaming stores for our perusal.

Moreover... you're the one on record for saying warpriests CAN switch. The onus is on you to make your case for it. "I heard a designer might have said it once in the future" isn't exactly a case, it's speculation based on hearsay about speculation.

As for the Warpriest's healing capacity: It will be worse. They don't have Healer's Lore. That's what makes Strength Clerics such good healers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is also absolutely zero precedent for it going the other way, where a feature says 'You get this specific power' and it actually means to choose from a general list.

The only time anything -close- to this happens is when you have alternative class features (Like Combat Agility), or when you have a power that explicitly states 'This can be taken instead of eldritch blast.'

In the case of the domain powers, neither of these cases exist.

I'm not waiting for a FAQ to tell me to do what the rules tell me to do. I don't need the designers to tell me 'You take the power Magic Missile' doesn't mean 'You take any power you like.' And I'm not going to forget that how I've interpreted is the only way the game has handled situations like this since the first Player's Handbook arrived at gaming stores for our perusal.

Moreover... you're the one on record for saying warpriests CAN switch. The onus is on you to make your case for it. "I heard a designer might have said it once in the future" isn't exactly a case, it's speculation based on hearsay about speculation.

As for the Warpriest's healing capacity: It will be worse. They don't have Healer's Lore. That's what makes Strength Clerics such good healers.

I'm not 'defending' or justifying anything, lol. As I said, I'm perfectly comfortable with your reading of the thing. It just varies from what I have seen a lot of other people state, including one 4e dev, that's all. Make of that what you will. I think I'll reserve final judgement. You're making an argument out of a non-argument methinks . I haven't even studied it THAT carefully, got too many other things to do and I doubt I'll be called on in the next couple months to run any games with Essentials characters in them anyway, we're down to one game a week around here (our UFLGS's employees have decided that 4e is TEH D3V1L and etc).