Will the MM2 have more than monsters...Forked from "advice to anyone still ..."

[Rechan]

Different strokes and all that, but I think a book that maintains a more even balance would be offering something useful for everyone's table, rather than just what the gearheads like or just what the dramatists like. Balance, y'know.

But why do you need a book of fluff? Your character is what's in your head, not what a book can tell you what it is. It's like familiars. People want rules to play them, because they all ready know what they want to do with them.

Do the Background thingies not work for you? Supposedly they're going to be in PHB2.

So don't you think fewer monsters -- each one with more work to ensure an interesting power set -- would be better than a scattershot of misses with only a handful of hits?

I'm pretty sure that no one would argue for 'fewer of better quality than more of less quality'.

Honestly? I just want the monsters they give us to work well. I do not want something that is supposed to fill a niche but does it poorly and unimaginatively *cough* Earth Titan *cough* or is just clearly broken (Needlefang drake, I'm looking at you).

Edit: I think DDI is fluff-town. If you want fluff, DDI is your thing. Many articles are wall-to-wall ideas. The Warforged article? The one for WF/Genasi too was pure fluff. The Ashen Covenant/Demonomicon/Codex of Betrayal stuff? 95% fluff.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But why do you need a book of fluff? Your character is what's in your head, not what a book can tell you what it is. It's like familiars. People want rules to play them, because they all ready know what they want to do with them.

Dunno what you mean by the familiars, but I don't need a book of fluff -- I need more than just statblocks.

A lair map is hardly fluff. Pre-made encounters aren't fluff. Traps, NPC's, Skill Challenges -- none of that is fluff. I think all of that has a place in an MM alongside the stat blocks, and, yes, alongside more than two sentences of description.

Monsters are much more than statblocks. They are statblocks, too, but the first MM's relentless focus on this as almost the be-all and end-all of monsters is more than ridiculous -- it's not good at the table (for me, anyway).

Do the Background thingies not work for you? Supposedly they're going to be in PHB2.

Not sure that's here or there, but not having seen them, I'm not sure if they work for me. They sound interesting, I guess?

I'm pretty sure that no one would argue for 'fewer of better quality than more of less quality'.

Honestly? I just want the monsters they give us to work well. I do not want something that is supposed to fill a niche but does it poorly and unimaginatively *cough* Earth Titan *cough* or is just clearly broken (Needlefang drake, I'm looking at you).

I'll agree with that basically 100%. I would say that by giving us a diversity of challenges, and by spending more time on fewer stat blocks, I think that this is more achievable than by subscribing to the stat-block grist mill.

Edit: I think DDI is fluff-town. If you want fluff, DDI is your thing. Many articles are wall-to-wall ideas. The Warforged article? The one for WF/Genasi too was pure fluff. The Ashen Covenant/Demonomicon/Codex of Betrayal stuff? 95% fluff.

Dragon and Dungeon are pretty good on this front, but I don't understand why the books themselves should be exempt from the rule of "don't put all your eggs in one basket."

It's not about fluff per se (though that's part of it). It's about not being a statdump.

 

[Rechan]

At the same time, this goes too far in the other direction. While it's amusing to learn of the mating habits of red dragons, I don't need to know that, and it doesn't really help me use them at the table.

Actually, I think Open Grave/Draconomicon are balanced. It's just that they're balanced by two dense ends.

Half the book is Fluff fluff fluffity fluff. The other half is crunch crunch crunchity crunch.

 

[Wormwood]

While I wouldn't mind *a little* supplementary stuff in there, I would much rather that the MM2 followed the MM in format and function.

I love being able to pick it up, flip to a page, and run a monster. That's all I want or need, really.

 

[Rechan]

Dunno what you mean by the familiars, but I don't need a book of fluff -- I need more than just statblocks.

A lair map is hardly fluff. Pre-made encounters aren't fluff. Traps, NPC's, Skill Challenges -- none of that is fluff. I think all of that has a place in an MM alongside the stat blocks, and, yes, alongside more than two sentences of description.

Traps are just monsters that don't roam around and only have parts you can hit; they're statblocks by another name.

NPCs... hmm. Honestly, if I need an NPC I make one. But it seems that the Lairs also have NPCs in them.

However, it would irritate me if there was a cluttering of maps and NPCs for every section. A prime example of this were the later 3e books. It seemed like EACH PRC had 4 pages that told you how to RP the class, where the class fit in the world, some NPCs of the PRC, and a map of their headquarters.

Though, I think the place for NPCs and fluff on places are the Campaign Setting books. Even if you have no intention to play in FR or Eberron, just reading up on the NPC organizations should do you for a long, long time.

I also think we will be getting a Book of Lairs/NPCs. It's called Dungeon Delve. Here is a Sample Excerpt. It's basically a mini-adventure - two paragraphs of background, a "Map" which is just a digital image of dungeon tiles, three pre-made encounters (each with a single piece of the dungeon tiles for a room map), and the NPC. Even a tip on "Roleplaying the Shaman".

Granted, it's not perfect or pretty, but I imagine if you need something in a pinch.

Again, I'm surprised that Draconomicon/Open Grave doesn't give you what you want, since it has lots of Fluff, lairs/maps/NPCs (in the lairs), and then statblocks.

Not sure that's here or there, but not having seen them, I'm not sure if they work for me. They sound interesting, I guess?

You can find some backgrounds in Backgrounds for Scale of War and Legacy of Acererak.

It's not about fluff per se (though that's part of it). It's about not being a statdump.

To me? It's about "Catering to certain groups". If you're a gearhead, the X Power books are your thing. Open Grave/Draconomicon are for DMs, and offer an array. Dungeon Delve is for those who need quick adventures/encounters. Campaign Settings offer a lot of NPCs and places and ideas. It's compartmentalization.

 

[Zaukrie]

I'm not sure how any newish DM would have any idea what any of the monsters in the current MM were, other than stats. What is the difference between the various humanoids? What role in the world do most of the monsters play. There are monsters with barely any physical description and no picture! How could most newish DMs run those in any way other than a tactical battle (if they wanted to)? Even a little more fluff, not a lot, but a little, would be helpful.

 

[Runestar]

With the original MM, I have more than I need. With that + compendium + dragon + dungeon + supplements, I have WAY more than I will EVER use. Add to that templates, and easy monster creation rules, and I ALREADY have overload.

But not necessarily more than you will ever use.

The issue here is that you may not want or be able to use a particular monster. Not every campaign has room for all the different dragons of varying age categories. We may have multiple demon lords, but unless you are planning a foray into hell itself, your party shouldn't get to fight Orcus, Yeenoghu, Tiamat and Demogorgon in rapid succession (they will likely be the capstone of a long plot, not some random encounter). Just because the MM gives you 5 variants of a kobold does not mean you may actually get to use them all. The designers can't really predict what you do need (and different players will have different wants), so the best they can do is to come up with as many variations as possible and hope that some find their mark.

 

[Glyfair]

I do not want to see a lot of fluff in the MMII, instead I want stat blocks that I can add my fluff to. A pure crunch MMII is exactly what I want, as long as it is not a reprint o all the monsters form Dungeon, dragon, adventures and such. That I hope I do not see. I want new monsters.

The issue with this, as the original post I quoted hints at, is that if it is all statblocks then you can get all that from the D&D Compendium. Why buy the MM2 if you subscribe to DDI if all the statblocks are part of your subscription?

 

[Rechan]

The issue with this, as the original post I quoted hints at, is that if it is all statblocks then you can get all that from the D&D Compendium. Why buy the MM2 if you subscribe to DDI if all the statblocks are part of your subscription?

For one, ability to see what's in the entry. There's varying levels and roles within one entry in the MM. Finding out the contents would be a long, arduous task, whereas one can flip through the book.

THere's also the issue of "The PCs just zigged when I planned for them to zag. They're 8th level and jumped into the sewer. I need an 8th level sewer-dwelling entities STAT." It takes a minute or two to find what's appropriate with the book in hand at the table. What about the compendium?

 

[malraux]

The issue with this, as the original post I quoted hints at, is that if it is all statblocks then you can get all that from the D&D Compendium. Why buy the MM2 if you subscribe to DDI if all the statblocks are part of your subscription?

Is that really a problem, though? If I spend 60 buying 3 books, vs 60 buying the DDI, I'd imagine WotC is in worse shape. I'd be shocked if WotC makes nearly as much on the paper MMs as with DDI.

All this said, I think that the pure crunch and heavily fluff dichotomy that WotC has setup for this edition is a good thing. It has made me more likely to buy any books. The almost mandatory idea that every books should contain 1-3 new base classes, 3-4 prcs, new spells, items, monsters, etc along with all the interesting fluff of the book worked as a discouragement to buying, at least to me. I much prefer knowing that if I'm not a martial character, I don't need the martial power book. If my campaign doesn't involve undead, then open grave won't add a lot to my game, but will be the goto book when I do need it.