Will the real 4E please stand up?

[Darrin Drader]

Pathfinder

It aspires to fixing the flaws of 3e without completely giving up the game to "complete gamist crap".

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Aside from Pathfinder, if you're really looking for something streamlined, True20 is IMO the superior game engine. You can do anything you want with it, from traditional sword and sorcery to scifi. It's already my game of choice for future and modern gaming, and with a few tweaks, it could be my game of choice for fantasy as well.

4E is the greatest fear I've ever had about D&D, come slouching to life.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

There is no 4e yet. Pathfinder is 3.5's older brother, who's more experienced and understands how to go about things better. 4e is the mutated offspring that resulted from inbreeding with other games.

 

[malraux]

4e is retro.

I'd describe it more as a reboot than retro.

 

[pemerton]

(A lot of this is drawn from the observations of others about the D&D family, especially Lawrence Schick's Heroic Worlds and Roger Moore's "The highs and lows of fantasy" in DRAGON #163.)

After looking for this article in my Dragon compendium, I want to post a minor correction: it is in #143, and the author is Paul Hancock.

 

[rounser]

I'd describe it more as a reboot than retro.

Or unproduct, like when Paranoia lost the plot for an edition.

 

[Nikosandros]

I gotta agree with the sentiment that 4e hearkens strongly back to B/E/C/M/I. Both stylistically with the cover art and in tone and simplicity. Reread those old Moldvay Basic books and you'll see no quibbling about what the game is about - go thee to the dungeon and kill everything there.

4e is retro.

Personally, I see nothing retro about 4e. It seems to me that the game has nothing in common with BECMI.

4e has a highly tactical combat system that requires the use of a battlemat. The characters are highly customizable and begin 1st level as already quite competent... the list could go on.

4e is a very modern game.

 

[Fifth Element]

Personally, I see nothing retro about 4e. It seems to me that the game has nothing in common with BECMI.

4E paragon paths = druid, paladin/knight/avenger rules
4E epic destinies = epic paths

 

[Obryn]

Personally, I see nothing retro about 4e. It seems to me that the game has nothing in common with BECMI.

No doubt, there are a lot of very modern things about 4e. It inherited a lot of elements from 3e, and borrowed heavily from SWSE, Earthdawn, and other games.

The frequent "retro" comments have been better explained by others such as Col. Hardisson, but it's largely based on the DM's role, the way the world interacts with PCs, and the free-style play outside of combat. Also, monsters are back to being built from a functional level instead of built like PCs - which is also a throwback to BECMI.

Nobody will ever mistake 4e's mechanics for a game that could have come out in the early 80's. It's the tone that many are talking about.

-O

 

[Nikosandros]

The frequent "retro" comments have been better explained by others such as Col. Hardisson, but it's largely based on the DM's role, the way the world interacts with PCs, and the free-style play outside of combat.

A feature of many different games. It is quite common to devote 90% or more of the rules to combat and leave the rest to the GM.

Also, monsters are back to being built from a functional level instead of built like PCs - which is also a throwback to BECMI.

Again, this is true in many, many RPGs. 3E, along with GURPS and Hero is one of a few systems that tries that.

It's the tone that many are talking about.

I can't really argue about the tone thing because it is a matter of personal feeling and I realize that many feel like this. For me, the tone couldn't be different...

 

[TerraDave]

I wrote a point by point reply on why 4E>BECMI

The server ate it.

So, in short: 4E has more charecter, monsters, tactical...options, more robust rules, does not require the DM to be a master of improvisation and on the fly rules adjudication and creation and is not harder to play in practice, has a real skill system....and you can still use Ilse of Dread with it!