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Will trying to maintain legacy and the "feel" of D&D hurt innovation?

hanez

First Post
People who haven't bought new books, refuse to play newer editions, and think that everything would be right with the D&D world if Wizards simply threw everything after their favored edition in the trash and reprinted material for their favored edition. I'm not saying people have to like or play every edition, simply that this is a market that has refused to buy new product for 20+ years. I don't see that changing.

I find it so odd that its economically better to sell a system then adventures and modules. I had a Dungeon, and a Dragon subscription. I thought the magazines were perfect, especially Dungeon. I would have paid more. Why they chose to throw that away in exchange for me buying 3 books every 5-6 years I'll never understand the economics of that decision.

I also think they forgot the system has to resemble a game I like for me to keep buying adventures, and modules and splat books. Looks like WOTC got a rude awakening about that.
 
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El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
People who haven't bought new books, refuse to play newer editions, and think that everything would be right with the D&D world if Wizards simply threw everything after their favored edition in the trash and reprinted material for their favored edition. I'm not saying people have to like or play every edition, simply that this is a market that has refused to buy new product for 20+ years. I don't see that changing.


And now we're getting to the crux of thngs...


First, people haven't refused to play a new edition, they chose to play the edition they prefer. This isn't just a matter of semantics and is a crucial distinction. One that speaks to motivation quite strongly...

Second, not playing the current edition does not mean the person also doesn't buy products of the current edition. Some don't. Some do. I'm one who did. At least until...(read below)

Third, of those that no longer buy current products, edition preference is not the only reason. Another very big reason are the huge mistakes WotC made in how they treated customers and their preferences in the run-up to, and after the release of, the current edition. And just so you know, I'm not just talking about the bad-mouthing of past editions. I'm also talking about the way fans of the current edtition were treated concerning DDI (remember WotC's responses to customers about wanting high res maps and different adventure layouts...), the treating of the entire industry with the GSL, and the pulling of pdf's because we are all just horrible thieves that can't be trusted.

Fourth, the majority of people DO NOT want WotC to burn every edition but their own. The majority of people do not begrudge anyone their choice of edition. And those same people wish that you would extend them the same courtesy. However, most of those people do want to see continued support for the edition they do prefer, if even in only a limited manner. Which is not an unreasonable request. In fact, it's such a reasonable request that WotC has decided that for the D&D brand to survive, they need to do just that (in the form of D&D Next).

Sixth, this group hasn't bought anything for the last 20+ years because D&D hasn't made any products that appeal to them. I'd say that your statement actually highlights that for the last 20+ years, TSR and then WotC have been phenomonally foolish to ignore the loss of significantly larger portions of it's potential customer base with each edition. A foolishness of such a magnitude that over those 20+ years they have lost over half of their potential market. They have not reacted to the market, stayed abreast of innovation, nor catered to their customer base. Catering (within reason) keeps you in business. Not catering (i.e. ignoring) doesn't.

Lastly, this group of people, which is larger than the group of people playing the current edition, has a treasure trove of experience and input that a design team would be absolutely foolish to ignore. Who best to help the designers determine what the feel of D&D is, than those who mostly stopped buying because later editions lost that feel for them. Not too mention the ideas they have from their own houserules and playing other editions. Ideas that could be crucial to adding true innovation to the game. Monte and company realise this and are not making that mistake. Do you think you know better than Monte and and the rest of WotC?

You don't see that changing. Well how else are they supposed to try and change it? Do you honestly think they should just ignore over half of their customer base, and continue on blithely until D&D is mothballed?

Your post (and other posts in this thread) and the language you chose to use shows a distinct amount of negativity on your part towards anyone that plays an older edtion or thinks and feels differently than you about D&D. I don't understand why, though that hardly matters since I'm neither asking you nor expecting you to explain it. But I do find that a very sad thing.
 

Hassassin

First Post
Regarding the subscription debate from a couple of pages back, I think there is a significant difference in the kinds of subscriptions WOTC and Paizo offer to their customers. Subscribing for access to new content for reduced prices or with perks is great. Having to pay even if you want to just continue using a tool is not.
 

Khaalis

Adventurer
Regarding the subscription debate from a couple of pages back, I think there is a significant difference in the kinds of subscriptions WOTC and Paizo offer to their customers. Subscribing for access to new content for reduced prices or with perks is great. Having to pay even if you want to just continue using a tool is not.

Correct. It is a poor business model the way DDI was setup.

A subscription for new content (adventures or source material) is good model. You are paying for new material continuously.

If you produce a tool, and want people to pay to use it, you should simply charge a flat fee for the use of that product. Licensing a product is a "subscription" type payment, but it doesn't actually offer use of the product. Instead a product license usually is a payment made for product updates and support, so technically you are paying for a service [support] and new content [updates].
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Correct. It is a poor business model the way DDI was setup.

A subscription for new content (adventures or source material) is good model. You are paying for new material continuously.

If you produce a tool, and want people to pay to use it, you should simply charge a flat fee for the use of that product. Licensing a product is a "subscription" type payment, but it doesn't actually offer use of the product. Instead a product license usually is a payment made for product updates and support, so technically you are paying for a service [support] and new content [updates].

I agree. I think they should also offer ala carte models rather than one basic subscription. As you've expressed, I'd love to see the tools as downloadable and supported software (like what you're talking about - one time buy as a "license" fee with support and updates provided), but I don't see them ever doing it. They did it for a very short while with some of the tools for 4E...at least until they had they're online versions up and running, and then no more support for the "software" versions. I think they really want the sustainable, consistent revenue of subscriptions. And they seem to have (or at least had) a paranoid steak of everyone is out to rob us or game the system, so we need to try and tightly control every little facet of our products. Of course though, in the immortal words of Princess Leia: "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems customers will slip through your fingers."

B-)
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
AD&D had a strangely archaic feel when it was released in the late '70s, with the old-fashioned Gygaxian vocabulary, out of date fantasy literature influences, and "font of the 1930s" Futura.

That's partly why it was so peculiarly compelling then and why for many people it feels pretty fresh now.
That's a very interesting point. Another great cultural icon of the 70s, Star Wars, has a similarly archaic feel, being closer to adventure serials of the 1930s than contemporary science fiction movies such as 2001 or Silent Running.

However one could see that aspect of AD&D as being very much of its time. Retro/nostalgia was a big part of 70s culture - Happy Days, Grease, George Lucas's American Graffiti, Animal House. Fantasy was also popular - Lord of the Rings on college campuses, 'Frodo Lives!', Marvel's Conan.
 

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