Will trying to maintain legacy and the "feel" of D&D hurt innovation?

[Savage Wombat]

Your adamant defense of 4E is well noted. Not all agree with you.

Moving on.

 

[El Mahdi]

I was referencing 4e I didnt think his grognard reaction was towards 5e

Oooops...My Bad.

 

[Lord Zack]

The answer to this question is already clearly written in the game's past. AD&D was mechanically stagnant for 20 years, because TSR wouldn't innovate.

Trying to be the same results in you being the same, or failing. That's not exactly aspirational.

This was a bad thing?

 

[Khaalis]

This was a bad thing?

IMHO, yes. I seem to be in a small minority here, but the old versions of D&D left me "wanting". Even though Fantasy is my #1 preference of any genre, I still strayed from the D&D path into many other games in search of what was "missing" from D&D or what I felt didn't work. A such I have played MANY RPG systems over the years, and None have been the 'end-all-be-all' system. However, many of the other RPGs have had brilliant parts of the game system that I have always thought 'I'd love to see this in D&D'. There have been hundreds if not thousands of posts here and on other boards of just this sentiment... 'How best can I get this system to work in D&D'?

If WotC truly wants to create a new 'all encompassing' D&D, I think that simply going backwards to old editions is Not the answer. The percentage of people who prefer the old systems seems rather niche to me.

What would seem to be the best thing WotC could do at this point is to be progressive with the game system. Open their eyes to the many other great models of systems that are out there. To go forward, WotC should look to the "feel" of the old systems and create a new game system that works better than those old systems to create the same feel. They also need to embrace that players are very different. People love their D&D, but want to be able to play different games with it. Some want High Fantasy, some want Tolkienesque Fantasy, some want Grim & Gritty Fantasy, some want Sword & Sorcery Fantasy. The system needs to include options to make these games work. For instance the old AC/HP system works for some genres but something like a Defense/Vitality/Wounds system is by far better for genres like Grim & Gritty.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[El Mahdi]

If WotC truly wants to create a new 'all encompassing' D&D, I think that simply going backwards to old editions is Not the answer. The percentage of people who prefer the old systems seems rather niche to me.

I'm not sure what you've gleaned from the releases by Monte and company, but this is definitely NOT what they are doing...

What would seem to be the best thing WotC could do at this point is to be progressive with the game system. Open their eyes to the many other great models of systems that are out there. To go forward, WotC should look to the "feel" of the old systems and create a new game system that works better than those old systems to create the same feel. They also need to embrace that players are very different. People love their D&D, but want to be able to play different games with it. Some want High Fantasy, some want Tolkienesque Fantasy, some want Grim & Gritty Fantasy, some want Sword & Sorcery Fantasy. The system needs to include options to make these games work. For instance the old AC/HP system works for some genres but something like a Defense/Vitality/Wounds system is by far better for genres like Grim & Gritty.

Except for the looking to other systems part, the above is what WotC is doing. And even though they aren't specifically looking at other systems, Monte and company are obviously floating some ideas they have garnered while playing other games. A perfect example was the article on dice tricks. Using extra modifier dice is nothing new for TSR/WotC (Alternity), but dice pools have never been a part of D&D. I think there could be some interesting and innovative uses for them in D&D...and apparently Monte and company do too...

They've said they are looking at all the best parts of all the editions. Trying to winnow that down to a simple yet inclusive core game (inclusive of all that is D&D), and then provide flexible tools and add-on modules to allow the core system to play as all of those different styles you mentioned.

It's not like all those parts of different editions are just going to naturally link together. It's going to take a lot of modifying, and Yes: Innovation - in order to make it work.

Now if what you're proposing is to completely disregard or not use any previous D&D mechanics, and only use new mechanics or mechanics from other systems, I think that would be phenomonally silly on WotC's part to do that.

First of all, does anyone really think that at this point, there are really any new mechanics left to be discovered?

Secondly, how can a game purposely made up of non-D&D mechanics ever feel like D&D?

And Last, why in the world would anyone designing a new version of D&D ignore decades of D&D mechanical development, just in order to appear more progressive and innovative? Especially when in a lot of cases, those bits of D&D are exclusively availabe only to WotC... That wouldn't make any rational sense at all.

They are looking for new ways to use old mechanics, ways to unify them into a new cohesive and innovative whole, and ways to incorporate past optional and fringe D&D mechanics and non-D&D mechanics as add-on modules to give D&D the versatility for use with any style of game play.

How is that not Innovation?

 

[Khaalis]

[MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION]

I never said what WotC is trying to isn't innovative. I was more directing my comment to the repetition of comments that are basically saying "I want X edition or its going to be garbage." This is why I say that simply looking backwards is not the solution. I also disagree that new mechanics cannot exist in D&D and it still feel like D&D. There are plenty of ideas and systems that work perfectly well and still feel like D&D. Just as a single example, as I noted, the Vitality/Wound concept. This is nothing new and has been proposed on the boards since at least 2E days. HP is not the only option. Should HP be the base rule? Sure. It's a "Tradition!" in D&D. Should it be the ONLY option? No. As a modular option Wounds and Vitality, Armor as DR, Stress Damage, etc. should all be explored as possible new mechanical options. Just because it didn't exist in a previous version of D&D doesn't mean it can't be a part of the new D&D.

 

[El Mahdi]

@El Mahdi

I never said what WotC is trying to isn't innovative. I was more directing my comment to the repetition of comments that are basically saying "I want X edition or its going to be garbage." This is why I say that simply looking backwards is not the solution. I also disagree that new mechanics cannot exist in D&D and it still feel like D&D. There are plenty of ideas and systems that work perfectly well and still feel like D&D. Just as a single example, as I noted, the Vitality/Wound concept. This is nothing new and has been proposed on the boards since at least 2E days. HP is not the only option. Should HP be the base rule? Sure. It's a "Tradition!" in D&D. Should it be the ONLY option? No. As a modular option Wounds and Vitality, Armor as DR, Stress Damage, etc. should all be explored as possible new mechanical options. Just because it didn't exist in a previous version of D&D doesn't mean it can't be a part of the new D&D.

I guess we both misunderstood eachother then. Such as, I didn't say that new mechanics cannot exist in D&D and have it still feel like D&D. I said that if D&D is made up from only new mechanics or mechanics from other systems, then it won't feel like D&D.

I apologize for my misunderstanding of your post.

Also, you were incorrect on something. Those that prefer older editions (which includes 3E), has been shown to be a much larger group than those who like the current edition of D&D. Well over half of total gamers is not a niche group.

 

[DMKastmaria]

Money talks, as they say. We're talking about a small audience who hasn't bought anything in 20 years, after more than 2 editions, it's a lot more of "I like what I've got" than "Wizards hasn't made me happy" yet. Wizards isn't going to reclaim any massive market share through the oldschool guys. They are at best fairweather friends, as long as Wizards does everything to make them happy, they'll buy, soon as Wizards does something else, caters to a new audience, they're gone. That doesn't sound like a reliable market to me.

I spent about $400 on newly published gaming material, last year. The products were all compatible with 1e, which I'm currently running. They were published by outfits like LotFP, FGG, and about half a dozen others. But, not WotC. I'm hardly the only "old schooler" who's buying new gaming material. If I am, then James Raggi, et al, are screwed!

I don't get those last two sentences, at all. Are you suggesting I should buy stuff from WotC, even if it's not product in which I'm interested? I'm all for supporting a company I believe in, but that company is going to have to meet me half-way. Like, by publishing something I actually want.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Even if they took only BECMI (or one of its close cousins) or 1E or 2E--pick any one, then said essentially, "We are going to make it feel just like that, only cleaner," they'd still fail. It doesn't matter how vast that supposed audience is, either, because the "feel" of any one of those editions is all over the place. The game over in the next town could be almost unrecognizable in "feel". Sure, it had elves and hit points and +1 longswords. But where they were filling in the holes and making it fit what they wanted was in no way constrained to what you were doing.

I think a lot of folks saying, "Just revert back to X, and this aspect will be fine the way it always was," are ... insufficiently reflecting upon what other things went with X that made that work for them. This is why what some of the later version crowds wants causes so much grief. It sounds simple, and you've got 10 different ways to do it, but a different person has a "deal-breaker" objection to each one of those ways. it turns out that there is no single "early D&D feel" to emulate. But as long as we talk about that feel in vague terms, people can assume that there is. Until you go that next town over and check, you can think that what they were doing if fully compatible with what you are doing.

That in no way says that the goal of some unity is hopeless. It does say that you can't really get useful solutions without listening to a wide range of concerns, and then determining where the fault lines are.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Wounds and Vitality

3e Unearthed Arcana

Armor as DR

BECMI Thyatis/Alphatia boxed set. (IIRC)