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- Thread starter RangerWickett
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Dragon's are one of the toughest creatures, due to their power and cunning, and when fighting them, you need to be cleaver, especially when your at lower levels. Our group was attacked by a young male black dragon in a lightly wooded area, we immediatly spread out to prevent the brerath weapon from hitting multiple people, it was almost invisable so our mage cast a web in the direction we heard him land, which hit him, and although it didn't slow him, it allowed us to tell where it was, our halfling cleric kept attracting its attention, and finally after a few rounds it went to bite our halfling, so our halfling grabbed all his arrows(inc skunk arrows and paralysis arrows) and jammed them into the dragons mouth, as he bit the halfling, which caused the halfling to go unconscious, and stunned the dragon long enough to finish it off. This was in a 2nd edition game, and our characters were only level 5-6 at the time, but due to our tactics the halfling was the only one that went down, and due to luck my jonguleur's magic missle all hit the dragon, and due to the wizards web, we could tell where the dragon was. Our dm was stunned that his dragon went down so easy.
pntbllr
First Post
I recently employed a dragon to bring the party back together and show that even with the changes that had occured withen the party they still fought better as a group rather than seperatly. The only pc death was the stubborn driud who was the most vocal troublemaker (he,he,he, funny how that worked out). After recovering in town and meeting a new party member they got back on track to compleat their quest.
libram equitas, I think that is the name of the class book
libram equitas, I think that is the name of the class book
Hmm Dragons.
Interestingly for a game ostendably about the big Lizards I've never Dm'd or played in a game with one as an encounter. This is an artifact of my play style (more Howard and Lieber than epic) and for the fact I am too scared to spring one on my dumb players
In my test runs (for 3e) though I've noticed that played even with a modicum of craft and guile an adult Red can make has of less prepared players into its lunch
With flight, breath weapon and its spells Dragonc can challenege most parties above its CR -- throw in players who don't have a real good understanding of the rules (like Buffs, Fly/Invis, and resoucre use) and you the recipe for a TPK
No for my uses I would prefer to be rid of the heradric (metal and color) based dragons. I would prefer either 5 (fire, water etc) or maybe Wyrm (legless) True Dragon (Flyer) and a Water Drake maybe with more "sciency" breath weapons
I don't think the game would be served by this mind you -- only my campaign --
as for D&D itself -- more is better and I say bring back purples and browns and yellows (with the salt breath weapon) and all that jazz-- I'll never use em but a lot of people will
item --- EN Arsenal Shields or Lycienan Arcanum
Interestingly for a game ostendably about the big Lizards I've never Dm'd or played in a game with one as an encounter. This is an artifact of my play style (more Howard and Lieber than epic) and for the fact I am too scared to spring one on my dumb players
In my test runs (for 3e) though I've noticed that played even with a modicum of craft and guile an adult Red can make has of less prepared players into its lunch
With flight, breath weapon and its spells Dragonc can challenege most parties above its CR -- throw in players who don't have a real good understanding of the rules (like Buffs, Fly/Invis, and resoucre use) and you the recipe for a TPK
No for my uses I would prefer to be rid of the heradric (metal and color) based dragons. I would prefer either 5 (fire, water etc) or maybe Wyrm (legless) True Dragon (Flyer) and a Water Drake maybe with more "sciency" breath weapons
I don't think the game would be served by this mind you -- only my campaign --
as for D&D itself -- more is better and I say bring back purples and browns and yellows (with the salt breath weapon) and all that jazz-- I'll never use em but a lot of people will
item --- EN Arsenal Shields or Lycienan Arcanum
JediSoth
Voice Over Artist & Author
I’ve played in one dragon fight. It was a 2nd edition AD&D game and I was playing a dwarf fighter named Balthazar Bouldercrusher. It was over ten years ago, so details are sketchy, but I remember us kind of stumbling into his lair, and though we were looking for him, everyone was so surprised at actually finding this dragon that they all ran…except for Balthazar. I was a little tired of my character being picked on by some of the other players, so I did what any dwarf would do when faced with a dragon: I charged it. Leaping onto the beast’s back, I rained blow after blow upon him with my mighty magical battle axe (it may have been a vorpal axe). We didn’t kill the dragon, but neither did it kill us, and I was proud to have been the only character not to flee like a girly-man.
I have DMed two dragon fights that I can remember. The first one, I don’t remember any details except that I had the dragon (a green) burst out of a forest, puffing himself up and snapping trees as he revealed himself to the PCs. The second one, just over a week ago in the World’s Largest Dungeon, was also a green (I don’t have a fetish for green dragons, honest). He was investigating the intrusion of the PCs upon his territory, but was going to let them be as long as they stayed in the areas into which he could not fit. Well, several of the party members were stricken permanently insane by a trap and they were making a huge ruckus, so he flew up to the door, blew his breath weapon in (killing one of the PCs) and then engaged the PCs foolish enough (or insane enough, in this case) to attack him. He crushed the pseudodragon rogue against the wall, smashing him into a viscous jelly-like substance and bit the half-orc barbarian in half.
A good battle against a dragon has several features. One, I think the dragon needs to utilize all of its abilities, especially ones that take into account its sheer size (like the crush attack and the tail slap). Two, it’s important that the dragon-ness of the creature is emphasized in the descriptions. Descriptions are key to making the dragon stand out against all the other encounters. I try to make sure the players understand that this is an extremely large, belligerent, and intelligent creature and it will use its size to its advantage. The PCs have to feel like they’re in real danger of losing their lives to this creature and it regards them as insignificant insects (until they prove otherwise).
The dragon is significant compared to other monsters because it’s THE iconic monster of the game. It’s not called Dungeons & Kobolds, or Dungeons & Rust Monsters, it’s Dungeons & Dragons. The game just wouldn’t be the same without them (say what you will about Tunnels and Trolls or Castles and Crusades, fine as they may be, they’re just not Dungeons and Dragons). Not only that, but dragons have been part of human legends since the beginning of history, I doubt you’ll find anyone living today in the civilized world who hasn’t heard some sort of story from their culture’s past that deals with a dragon, or a creature that is very close to a dragon (a rose by any other name…). I don’t recall too many stories in myth or legend about rust monsters or beholders.
JediSoth...who thinks the PDF of Everyone Else would be a mighty prize.
I have DMed two dragon fights that I can remember. The first one, I don’t remember any details except that I had the dragon (a green) burst out of a forest, puffing himself up and snapping trees as he revealed himself to the PCs. The second one, just over a week ago in the World’s Largest Dungeon, was also a green (I don’t have a fetish for green dragons, honest). He was investigating the intrusion of the PCs upon his territory, but was going to let them be as long as they stayed in the areas into which he could not fit. Well, several of the party members were stricken permanently insane by a trap and they were making a huge ruckus, so he flew up to the door, blew his breath weapon in (killing one of the PCs) and then engaged the PCs foolish enough (or insane enough, in this case) to attack him. He crushed the pseudodragon rogue against the wall, smashing him into a viscous jelly-like substance and bit the half-orc barbarian in half.
A good battle against a dragon has several features. One, I think the dragon needs to utilize all of its abilities, especially ones that take into account its sheer size (like the crush attack and the tail slap). Two, it’s important that the dragon-ness of the creature is emphasized in the descriptions. Descriptions are key to making the dragon stand out against all the other encounters. I try to make sure the players understand that this is an extremely large, belligerent, and intelligent creature and it will use its size to its advantage. The PCs have to feel like they’re in real danger of losing their lives to this creature and it regards them as insignificant insects (until they prove otherwise).
The dragon is significant compared to other monsters because it’s THE iconic monster of the game. It’s not called Dungeons & Kobolds, or Dungeons & Rust Monsters, it’s Dungeons & Dragons. The game just wouldn’t be the same without them (say what you will about Tunnels and Trolls or Castles and Crusades, fine as they may be, they’re just not Dungeons and Dragons). Not only that, but dragons have been part of human legends since the beginning of history, I doubt you’ll find anyone living today in the civilized world who hasn’t heard some sort of story from their culture’s past that deals with a dragon, or a creature that is very close to a dragon (a rose by any other name…). I don’t recall too many stories in myth or legend about rust monsters or beholders.
JediSoth...who thinks the PDF of Everyone Else would be a mighty prize.
Different Dragons
Now for a bit on dragon encounters out of the ordinary.
Since green dragons have been appearing in this topic with some frequency this will start off with a green dragon encounter.
The party is traveling through the woods. The party wizard Fireballs a kobold gang. Which act starts a (fortunately short lived) fire. A mile later the party is accosted by an irate green dragon. A fairly typical green dragon where alignment is concerned, but a green dragon who is also a ranger. The dragon is going to wipe the floor with the party, but first he's going to tell them why he's putting them through a whole bunch of pain.
Or the conflict might be economic or political. A red dragon is (secretly) backing a candidate for town council. Can the party discover this connection and/or insure the candidate's defeat. And what if the candidate actually is the best man for the job?
Then you have good old competition. A dragon backs one tavern owner, the party winds up backing another. The conflict never breaks out into open combat, but still problems pop up the party must deal with. As well as opportunities to create proplems for the dragon's tavern owner.
Let us not forget those occasions when the party ends up on the dragon's side. And it need not be with good dragons. Could well be with a good dragon of a normally evil type. Or even with an evil dragon against a greater evil.
Red dragon: Yes, I oppress those who live in my territory. This thing leaves its territories a sterile waste. I might be persuaded to improve my behavior. This thing cannot change.
it, I'll buy a print-out from RPGNow.
Now for a bit on dragon encounters out of the ordinary.
Since green dragons have been appearing in this topic with some frequency this will start off with a green dragon encounter.
The party is traveling through the woods. The party wizard Fireballs a kobold gang. Which act starts a (fortunately short lived) fire. A mile later the party is accosted by an irate green dragon. A fairly typical green dragon where alignment is concerned, but a green dragon who is also a ranger. The dragon is going to wipe the floor with the party, but first he's going to tell them why he's putting them through a whole bunch of pain.
Or the conflict might be economic or political. A red dragon is (secretly) backing a candidate for town council. Can the party discover this connection and/or insure the candidate's defeat. And what if the candidate actually is the best man for the job?
Then you have good old competition. A dragon backs one tavern owner, the party winds up backing another. The conflict never breaks out into open combat, but still problems pop up the party must deal with. As well as opportunities to create proplems for the dragon's tavern owner.
Let us not forget those occasions when the party ends up on the dragon's side. And it need not be with good dragons. Could well be with a good dragon of a normally evil type. Or even with an evil dragon against a greater evil.
Red dragon: Yes, I oppress those who live in my territory. This thing leaves its territories a sterile waste. I might be persuaded to improve my behavior. This thing cannot change.
it, I'll buy a print-out from RPGNow.
Last edited:
WhimsyTheFae
Explorer
FickleGM reporting for thread duty!
Unfortunately, I have nothing...nope, I'm tapped. I wish that I could add something, but all I can do is read Roudi's post and laugh and laugh
(good job Roudi)...
Unfortunately, I have nothing...nope, I'm tapped. I wish that I could add something, but all I can do is read Roudi's post and laugh and laugh
(good job Roudi)...
Tinner
First Post
I ran a fun dragon encounter recently for my party.
The best part was that the dragon was "dead" when they found it.
The party was exploring a dungeon complex that they knew was the lair of a dragon who worshipped Tiamat. They were suitably worried.
They had also been told that this dragon took maidens captive on a regular basis for torture, sacrifice, and general snacking.
The party fought their way through the dungeon, and finally reached the beast's lair.
There they found nothing but an enormous mound of treasure - a large dragon hoarde, but no sign of the dragon.
Further searching found a captive, chained to a wall. After tending her wounds, the party questioned the hysterical maiden who told them that the dragon had left after a fight with a nearby giant.
Thgis confirmed what the party had learned earlier when they met the giant. They knew there was bad blood between the two, and that they had clashed recently.
Being good-hearted noble heroes, the PC's decided that they needed to get this poor woman back to safety. However, they were still on a quest for an item rumored to be in the dragon's hoarde, and after all, there was a huge treasure mound to loot ... so they SPLIT THE PARTY!
The Ranger/Horizon Walker and the Rogue/Shadowdancer were to escort the woman back to the party's secure base-camp, where their cohorts and followers could see that she was returned to her people. The Paladin and Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge remained behind to sort/loot the treasure.
The escort team made it abnout halfway out of the dungeon when the captive showed her true colors. With a clever use of the Magic Jar spell, the dragon had occupied the body of a female warrior, who proceeded to beat the holy heck out of her "escorts." Once they were disabled, (one KO'd, the other paralyzed) she dumped the warrior body, and returned to her original draconic body - which was hidden in a recessed compartment beneath her hoarde of treasure.
Bursting from the mound of loot, the dragon lit into the Paladin and his spell-casting companion with everything she had. The fight was glorious. Without the help from their teammates, and worried that their friends might be dying somewhere, the Paladin and the spellcaster fought like devil himself. They used irreplaceable magic items, exhausted spell lists, and after a brutal conflict, managed to slay the beast.
With a handful of hit points left they rushed to find and rescue their comrades, and only then finally complete their quest
My group still talks about that dragon fight because of the sneaky tactics the dragon used. They were used to arrogant dragons, who spouted their invincibility Smaug-like, cocksure of their draconic superiority. Giving them a dragon that knew it could be beaten in a straight up fight, and chose to behave in a sly, crafty manner really made the fight come alive for everyone.
Still hoping for Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth
The best part was that the dragon was "dead" when they found it.
The party was exploring a dungeon complex that they knew was the lair of a dragon who worshipped Tiamat. They were suitably worried.
They had also been told that this dragon took maidens captive on a regular basis for torture, sacrifice, and general snacking.
The party fought their way through the dungeon, and finally reached the beast's lair.
There they found nothing but an enormous mound of treasure - a large dragon hoarde, but no sign of the dragon.
Further searching found a captive, chained to a wall. After tending her wounds, the party questioned the hysterical maiden who told them that the dragon had left after a fight with a nearby giant.
Thgis confirmed what the party had learned earlier when they met the giant. They knew there was bad blood between the two, and that they had clashed recently.
Being good-hearted noble heroes, the PC's decided that they needed to get this poor woman back to safety. However, they were still on a quest for an item rumored to be in the dragon's hoarde, and after all, there was a huge treasure mound to loot ... so they SPLIT THE PARTY!
The Ranger/Horizon Walker and the Rogue/Shadowdancer were to escort the woman back to the party's secure base-camp, where their cohorts and followers could see that she was returned to her people. The Paladin and Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge remained behind to sort/loot the treasure.
The escort team made it abnout halfway out of the dungeon when the captive showed her true colors. With a clever use of the Magic Jar spell, the dragon had occupied the body of a female warrior, who proceeded to beat the holy heck out of her "escorts." Once they were disabled, (one KO'd, the other paralyzed) she dumped the warrior body, and returned to her original draconic body - which was hidden in a recessed compartment beneath her hoarde of treasure.
Bursting from the mound of loot, the dragon lit into the Paladin and his spell-casting companion with everything she had. The fight was glorious. Without the help from their teammates, and worried that their friends might be dying somewhere, the Paladin and the spellcaster fought like devil himself. They used irreplaceable magic items, exhausted spell lists, and after a brutal conflict, managed to slay the beast.
With a handful of hit points left they rushed to find and rescue their comrades, and only then finally complete their quest
My group still talks about that dragon fight because of the sneaky tactics the dragon used. They were used to arrogant dragons, who spouted their invincibility Smaug-like, cocksure of their draconic superiority. Giving them a dragon that knew it could be beaten in a straight up fight, and chose to behave in a sly, crafty manner really made the fight come alive for everyone.
Still hoping for Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth
I like tinner's encounter. That takes some serious foresight to pull off.
I'll leave the encounter setups to others and focus on combat tactics. It is my opinion that a dragon's best option is not to jump into melee and start thrashing around like a wild beast. That's a good way to get killed. A dragon's tactics will vary to a large part on what feats they have. Pretty much all dragons should have flyby attack, and all dragons of large or larger size should have snatch. Maneuverability is of key importance to a dragon, and if in an open space, they can flyby, breathing in one round, picking up a party member in the next, flinging/dropping that party member in the third while turning around, and then begin anew. Separating the party like that makes healing, running away, and fighting as a cohesive unit difficult if not impossible.
Another useful option for snatch is to hold onto the grappled creature (preferably in the mouth) as the creature (I think) takes bite damage each round, as well as breath weapon damage with no reflex save when the dragon uses the breath weapon. This is a useful tactic for quickly eliminating spellcaster support. Dragons, in my opinion, should fear melee. Fighters of a level equivalent to the dragons CR can do a pretty good job of taking off half their hp in a single round. Luckily, dragons can cast spells so they can either turn invisible, gain concealment by means of blur, hold person the fighter, dispel the fighter's flight spell, etc. If all else fails, a dragon should always run from it's foes rather than die at their hands. All dragons have a flight speed of at least 100ft if I'm not mistaken, and that is more than enough to outrun any character using a fly spell.
To sum up, a few rules:
breathe early, breathe often.
take ranged attackers and spellcasters out of the fight by grappling
take advantage of buff spells to reduce vulnerabilities
if all else fails, run away, and hunt them down later.
if a dragon has access to cleric spells, right after running away, heal, and come back for a second battle. Most likely the pc's are not recovered enough for a second fight with the big bad dragon.
Ah, one more thing. If a dragon *must* wade into melee. Make sure it throws up a darkness spell and jumps around a lot, or have it cast improved invisibility. Don't let the players just whale on it.
Btw. I just felt like contributing, don't want any prize
I'll leave the encounter setups to others and focus on combat tactics. It is my opinion that a dragon's best option is not to jump into melee and start thrashing around like a wild beast. That's a good way to get killed. A dragon's tactics will vary to a large part on what feats they have. Pretty much all dragons should have flyby attack, and all dragons of large or larger size should have snatch. Maneuverability is of key importance to a dragon, and if in an open space, they can flyby, breathing in one round, picking up a party member in the next, flinging/dropping that party member in the third while turning around, and then begin anew. Separating the party like that makes healing, running away, and fighting as a cohesive unit difficult if not impossible.
Another useful option for snatch is to hold onto the grappled creature (preferably in the mouth) as the creature (I think) takes bite damage each round, as well as breath weapon damage with no reflex save when the dragon uses the breath weapon. This is a useful tactic for quickly eliminating spellcaster support. Dragons, in my opinion, should fear melee. Fighters of a level equivalent to the dragons CR can do a pretty good job of taking off half their hp in a single round. Luckily, dragons can cast spells so they can either turn invisible, gain concealment by means of blur, hold person the fighter, dispel the fighter's flight spell, etc. If all else fails, a dragon should always run from it's foes rather than die at their hands. All dragons have a flight speed of at least 100ft if I'm not mistaken, and that is more than enough to outrun any character using a fly spell.
To sum up, a few rules:
breathe early, breathe often.
take ranged attackers and spellcasters out of the fight by grappling
take advantage of buff spells to reduce vulnerabilities
if all else fails, run away, and hunt them down later.
if a dragon has access to cleric spells, right after running away, heal, and come back for a second battle. Most likely the pc's are not recovered enough for a second fight with the big bad dragon.
Ah, one more thing. If a dragon *must* wade into melee. Make sure it throws up a darkness spell and jumps around a lot, or have it cast improved invisibility. Don't let the players just whale on it.
Btw. I just felt like contributing, don't want any prize
Whisper72
Explorer
Hmmmm.... when I DM, I make use of (variations on) three 'basic types of dragon'...
The 'Civilized Dragon': this dragon likes the modern comforts. Usually found in cities, it makes us of shape shift / polymorph powers to look like one of the many humanoid beings in the city. Usually they pose as Wizard/Sorcerer, sometimes Priest/Druid, sometimes Psion, as this makes it easier to explain things when someone detects magical emenations from them, or sees them do things not easily explainable otherwise. These dragons usually have positions of power. They be lords, high-priests, merchants, teachers at wizarding academies etc. They have gathered a group of loyal followers, a lover, hirelings etc., a veritable household. They can be evil or good, depends completely upon their motives etc. An encounter with such a dragon is tricky, as it reveals its nature only when really necessary, and thus can be a nasty surprise fot the PC's, if the evil baron suddenly turns out to be a red dragon....
Then there is the 'Barbarian' dragon: this dragon is not sophisticated at all. It is a feral creature. It is possessed of animal cunning, makes excellent use of terrain etc., but other then that, it is the classical cave dwelling wyrm, sitting on its heap of bones from former victims and treasure. Ofttimes these dragons are not alone. In my worlds such creatures usually live in families, thus a mate and younglings make out the flight of dragons, anywhere from one single dragon to a family of seven or so... They are very territorial, and will fight for control of their lair and the surrounding hunting grounds.
Then there is the 'Mastermind' Dragon. This dragon does like its comforts, but will not stoop to minlging with lesser races as the 'Civilized' dragon does. It will dwell in some cave complex, a dungeon or other. It does like to lord it over subjects though. Therefore, this type of dragon will have entire tribes of kobolds working for it, hirelings (who may not know who their ultimate master is) spying the countryside, it may have several towns under it's control, demanding tribute etc. It is a smart dragon, it will not confront enemies directly. It knows when to flee and will only defend it's turf. It will usually have multiple lairs and multiple caches of treasure, so that the loss of one venue will not hurt its long term plans too much. Long term plans inlcude the gatehring of knowledge, domination, eternal life and such things... depending upon whether the dragon is essentially good or evil.
Hope this inspires some...
The 'Civilized Dragon': this dragon likes the modern comforts. Usually found in cities, it makes us of shape shift / polymorph powers to look like one of the many humanoid beings in the city. Usually they pose as Wizard/Sorcerer, sometimes Priest/Druid, sometimes Psion, as this makes it easier to explain things when someone detects magical emenations from them, or sees them do things not easily explainable otherwise. These dragons usually have positions of power. They be lords, high-priests, merchants, teachers at wizarding academies etc. They have gathered a group of loyal followers, a lover, hirelings etc., a veritable household. They can be evil or good, depends completely upon their motives etc. An encounter with such a dragon is tricky, as it reveals its nature only when really necessary, and thus can be a nasty surprise fot the PC's, if the evil baron suddenly turns out to be a red dragon....
Then there is the 'Barbarian' dragon: this dragon is not sophisticated at all. It is a feral creature. It is possessed of animal cunning, makes excellent use of terrain etc., but other then that, it is the classical cave dwelling wyrm, sitting on its heap of bones from former victims and treasure. Ofttimes these dragons are not alone. In my worlds such creatures usually live in families, thus a mate and younglings make out the flight of dragons, anywhere from one single dragon to a family of seven or so... They are very territorial, and will fight for control of their lair and the surrounding hunting grounds.
Then there is the 'Mastermind' Dragon. This dragon does like its comforts, but will not stoop to minlging with lesser races as the 'Civilized' dragon does. It will dwell in some cave complex, a dungeon or other. It does like to lord it over subjects though. Therefore, this type of dragon will have entire tribes of kobolds working for it, hirelings (who may not know who their ultimate master is) spying the countryside, it may have several towns under it's control, demanding tribute etc. It is a smart dragon, it will not confront enemies directly. It knows when to flee and will only defend it's turf. It will usually have multiple lairs and multiple caches of treasure, so that the loss of one venue will not hurt its long term plans too much. Long term plans inlcude the gatehring of knowledge, domination, eternal life and such things... depending upon whether the dragon is essentially good or evil.
Hope this inspires some...
