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[Dannyalcatraz]

If I earn a .pdf, I'll take whatever you wish to award me.

I was shaped by a dragon encounter run by a novice DM back in 1979 or so. He put a HARD asleep on its hoard in the second room of a dungeon. The party was 1st level, I was the Paladin.

I instantly pegged the DM as an idiot, so I played along with disgust- you want to be a killer DM, BRING IT ON! My Paladin strode up the hoard, climbed onto its head, straddling its neck, then drew his longsword and his dagger. He then stabbed the beast in its eye with his longsword, and using the now-lodged blade as a handle proceeded to stab away with his dagger.

The rest of the party was dumbfounded...but joined in. Some dwarves wandered in and joined in the fray as well. The party and the dwarves did some damage...but it was the Paladin who did the most, holding onto the blade like a medieval rodeo cowboy, stabbing away with a 4" piece of metal. He even got the coup-de-grace as well...

That was the LAST time that guy had me at his table- I couldn't believe that something so potentially epic had happened so cheaply.

Unless it is sick or insane, a dragon will use every bit of intellect it has. It will use tactics and spells to best effect. It should be as tough an opponent as any lich or avatar. As a creature with flying, it will think in 3 dimensions, not 2. As such, any dragon encounter should involve at least as much forethought as the rest of your adventure. It should be EPIC. Players should have a genuine fear that their PCs will not survive the encounter. They should consider retreat at least once.

When last I ran a dragon in lair encounter, it had an illusion over its body that made it appear to be asleep whenever it was on its hoard, regardless of its actual wakeful state. Thus, when the party approached, the dragon was already thinking ahead...

The first thing it did was use its powerful tail to sweep a large portion of its horde, wavelike, towards the party. Several were overwhelmed and knocked over...only the strongest remained standing on the front line. Then he breathed flame at the swamped PCs, heating and even slagging some of the metal. He then repeated the tail sweep and accentuated it with flapping wings...those not further buried were blinded by dust and gravel. It continued flicking and kicking coins while it breathed flames and thought about its spell selections...

Lightning bolt cast on a PC in metal armor standing in a conductive medium like a stack of gold? Electrical Fireball.

Rock to Mud cast on an area underneath someone already weighed down by 100's of lbs of treasure? Brutal.

Then, just when they thought they had it figured out, it used polymorph to change its shape and outflank them, and attacked from behind.

The party did not win...but instead of being snacks, they were forced into servitude for a time.

Another encounter in another campaign had a blue dragon coming up out of the clouds from underneath the party's sky-galleon, grabbing on, and attacking around the sides (like a housecat wrapping itself around your arm or foot)...then dropping off into the clouds and attacking from another direction. The dragon's hit-and-run tactics had them completely in disarray until the mage got in a lucky shot with a spell and the dragon failed its save.

Another red dragon attacked from the air...and never closed to within 500 yards after an initial strafing run with its breath. First, it used an illusion to appear to be flying along the King's Highway towards the party from the North. Then, as the party attacked the illusion, it strafed them from the South. Then it either cast spells on them, or dropped boulders on them like a (very big) seagull. Eventually, it figured out that the party wasn't fun (meaning: wasn't an easy meal), so it just wandered off...unscathed...looking for cattle.

 

[Whisper72]

Dragon Tactics

A large part of the fright a dragon should inspire comes from its tactics.

A large wyrm who has lived for hundreds of years, while there are tons of eager treasure seekers and would be dragon slayers out there, will have wizened up or died out long ago...

Thus, they will take most excellent use of their strengths:
- flight
- breath weapon
- magic (ofttimes)

No dragon worth his/her salt will not be buffed up to the max with all manner of spells when entering into a fight...
A dragon will make use of all the magical items in it's hoard...
A dragon might make use of the hoard itself (weighs quite a bit, being buried in it can be a pain...)
A dragon will seek to take to the air if this is advantagoes...
A dragon will wait with it's most powerful breath weapon until at least several foes can be attacked simultaneously
A dragon's lair will be trapped to the max
A dragon's lair will most likely contain servants, cohorts etc. who aid the dragon...
A dragon will have an escape plan prepared, and will return to attack when the PC's least expect it...
A dragon will most likely have collected magic that can help it (regeneration / healing, buffing, attack stuff) besides the random hoard, I mean seriously, s/he's had all the time in the world to trade for / hunt for useful stuff, it would be silly if all the treasure were stuff the dragon itself could not use...

Just some more thoughts... as for stuff I'd be interested in, the revised elements of magic, or mechamancy sound wicked cool...

 

[amethal]

Don't try this one at home folks .....

I only have two dragon stories, even though I've been gaming for a long time. This is my favourite.

We'd just started playing 3.0. The party was a scratch group of random individuals who had been brought together by chance - a group of villagers asked the nearest available 1st level adventuring types to form a party and enter the Sunless Citadel.

In a funny kind of way, the players were the same. Most of us only knew one or two of the others, none of us had ever played 3rd edition and the DM had never run a 3rd edition game.

Anyway, we'd made it to 5th level, and were on our way to a famous dungeon. I won't give its name in order to avoid spoilers.

We found out, much to our amazement, that a blue dragon was guarding the dungeon entrance. We'd never fought a dragon before (don't want to give Sunless Citadel spoilers either so I won't expand on that sentence as I otherwise might), but we knew their reputation. We could have retreated, researched and come back better prepared, but our pride was at stake. After all, we were the heroes who had cleaned out the Sunless Citadel. We were fully rested and had all our spells. It was time to test our mettle against a dragon.

My character, Amethal, (a fifth level elf sorcerer) was key to the plan. Amethal made the entire party invisible. Then, moving slowly and cautiously, we investigated the ruin ahead of us. We spread out, so as not to provide an easy target for its fiery breath (I told you we didn't do any research, so although the players knew better the characters didn't).

Steiger, mighty human fighter and deadly with his greatsword, had suddenly become a liability as he clanked across the terrain. Likewise Brand, a stout and heavily armoured Dwarf. Only Falcon, the human bard, Rommel the Half-Orc ranger and Name Escapes Me, an aged NPC human cleric of Oldimarra, seemed able to match the nimble Elf for stealth.

Suddenly, the dragon appeared, rushing out to defend its lair.

The beast seemed to somehow sense the presence of the invisible Steiger, but was unable to bring his claws and teeth to bear with full effect. Steiger struck him a powerful blow with his greatsword, which rocked even the mighty dragon, and then backed out of reach of the dragon's claws. The rest of the party waded in with spells and missile fire.

The dragon had some solid hits, but the beast seemed to have stamina to spare. The attack by the party had dispelled their invisibility, so now it had a choice of targets. Disdaining to fight toe to toe with the fighter, the dragon flew onto a ruined wall and fixed the sorcerer with his glowing red stare.

The beast opened its mouth, revealling its wicked razor sharp teeth, and breathed out a bolt of lightning at the Elf. Some sixth sense must have warned Amethal what was about to happen, for he flung himself to the side in a desperate attempt to get out of the way of the blast. Despite not taking the full brunt of the dragon's power, the sorcerer was badly wounded - and there was no one in range to help him.

If Amethal's comrades were shaken by this display of the dragon's might, they showed no sign - except for Falcon. The bard had no wish to risk suffering a similar bolt of lightning, and took cover after loosing one more arrow at the dragon. Brand, Steiger and Rommel likewise let fly at the beast, and their arrows struck home.

Finally the dragon was showing signs of weakening. A few more arrows and spells, and it would be slain. Amethal, however, was very badly wounded. It was unlikley he could survive another blast, but he had the option of scampering the fifty feet or so into the safety of a nearby building.

However, the Elf (never the most stable of characters) was overcome with the lust for battle. Screaming defiance at the dragon, he unleashed a trio of magic missiles in one last attempt to kill the beast.

The dragon staggered, but did not fall. Grievously wounded, it knew it could not take another round of such punishment - but neither could the Elf. The dragon fixed Amethal with its glowing red stare. Time seemed to stand still .....

Then, with a snort of rage, the dragon hurled itself into the sky and was gone.

(In the unlikely event I can ride on everyon else's coat tails for another day, I'd like Steam and Steel please.)

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Well, I am still having a bit of trouble with this topic, as Dragons really have been done to death. But I do have a couple gaming experiences with dragons.

First, as a player some 15 years ago, in a heavily homebrewed campaign my 9' tall human (wand of wonder made me tall) Indian (the DM was part Native American, so he had a class - think ranger on steroids) went hand to hand (or battleaxe to claws/teeth/breath) with a black dragon and would have been victorious if the dragon didn't breath and melee in the same round. Cheesy, all around...me for going toe-to-toe with a dragon, the dragon for not using flight to its advantage and the DM for having bad rules to make up for no strategy...

Second, as a DM for a party of two (one a dwarf fighter and the other a centaur druid), a green dragon confronted the pair while on an important mission for "king and crown". After a somewhat silly battle, in which the druid did very little (the player was afraid of his character being killed - I believe that plant growth was his most offensive act) and the dwarf drank an enlarge potion and went toe-to-toe against the dragon, the dragon took a whole different tactic. Knowing that he could obliterate the dwarf (it wasn't really a close fight and I even had the dragon go into melee to give the party a fighting chance), the dragon went for the intimidation angle. The dwarf (whose player refuses to be cowed no matter what he plays) decided it was better to crawl away with 1 hp than bow down to the dragon. As the dwarf crawled away, the dragon decided to let him go...but...while the dwarf was still in sight, the dragon ordered the centaur druid to heal him. The druid promptly complied, sewing the seeds of party conflict for the rest of the campaign. Much anger was had by some (I laughed and laughed). The dragon got some information out of the druid and went off to his own devices (knowing that the druid would probably be worse off with his dwarven buddy than being eaten by the dragon).

It's all the more fun when your two players have no depth in their roleplaying, are very predictable and are polar opposites.

I'll stop rambling now...(no PDF needed, I've already won the one that I wanted)

Later...

 

[Sigurd]

We dont use a dragon all at once

Seriously, most dragon encounters might be completely unrecognizable as encountering a dragon.

Imagine


A particularly knowledgable bard sings into the night. If the party realizes, his stories are surprisingly old and accurate. He soaks up the adoration of his fans and gathers their offerings into a silver purse.

From the inns semi darkness a troup of half orcs watch the golden haired nancy boy sing his funny songs. One calls out to the bard to 'pipe down' or he'll show him where Orcs get their drum skins.

The bard's eyes flash at the heckler, who suddenly thinks better of acting on his words. A voice inside his soul cowers before the presence of a greater predator. To those outside the exchange he merely fumbles for words and sits down but they are impressed that the bard continues his song unphased.

My characters, always looking for a source of good information decide to pay this bard more notice. They give generously to the performer -- hoping they will be appreciated in turn. Big gold pieces from a recent haul and a small silver fob in the shape of a centaur.

My party swings into action when the Innkeep closes the bar at 1am. My party has sized up the Half Orc troup. Could we take them if we have to defend our new friend? Carefully we leave in groups of ones and twos - we don't know each other here. The bard leaves, the rogue leaves, the half orcs leave and the rest of my party leaves while I take up the rear.


end of part one

question: How many characters in this setting could actually be a dragon?

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm surprised there was almost no mention at all of good, metallic dragons. Everyone seemed focused on the evil ones which must be defeated.

Except Roudi. He entertained the hell out of me.

Amethal also, with his short description of his dragon battle, did a good job. I like the image of a savage monster giving its opponents just enough respect for it to flee, disgruntled.

So I'll send out Steam & Steel and EOM: ME to these two.

But first, my dragon post.

Almost as defining as the ferocity of dragons is their treasure. Few creatures make for better guardians of hoards, and every dragon's hoard should be unique.

In one of my games, the party was looking for a vampire who had taken a hostage and was hiding in a maze lined with mirrors. The maze was hundreds of years old, created by a wizard with a fascination about glass, and they knew that a powerful artifact they were looking for -- a bottle of amberglass holding a miniature version of an airship -- was kept somewhere in the maze.

All manner of fun combat ensued -- including basilisks with their gaze attacks -- but when they finally got to the center of the maze, they found a bridge of crystal crossing a room filled with a lake of crystal-clear acid. In the center of the bridge lay the mutilated body of the hostage they were looking for, its body scarred with acid. There was no sign of the vampire, but on the far side of the bridge was a door, and from the crack beneath the door came the glow of golden light. Treasure, everyone thought.

The group started cautiously crossing the bridge. Then a creature burst up from the lake beneath them, swooping through the air, its wings singing like chimed crystal bells. It swooped and landed in the middle of the bridge, blocking their path, planting its claw on the corpse protectively. Nearly invisible in a room of countless reflections, it was a dragon made of glass.

The dragon took no immediate aggressive action, and the group was startled by its appearance, so they actually asked if it had seen the vampire. When it responded, it made no sound, but its words appeared in the air next to it, rotating into view like something out of Wheel of Fortune. Like echoes, the words were reflected by the mirrors.

It said that no one had ever made it past it, not since it first charmed the builder of the maze to erect this temple to it, to provide a proper home for its hoard. But the dragon was more vain and intellectual than violent, and the group eventually convinced it that the vampire must have snuck by it, invisible because it had no reflection.

It agreed to let them into its hoard and take one item if they brought out this supposed invisible thief and allowed it to tear the thief to bits and burn him in the acid pool. Which they proceeded to do.

Sure, the party probably had a good chance of taking the dragon in a stand up fight, but they understood and respected what the dragon wanted, and they were afraid of it. I was proud of that.

 

[RangerWickett]

The next topic will be, in respect to the name of our game, Dungeons, to go with the Dragons topic these past two days.

 

[Roudi]

He entertained the hell out of me.

Sometimes I think I live solely for the amusement of others My thanks for the great product!

 

[Alzrius]

One thing I don't think many campaigns take into account about dungeons is how much of a commodity they are.

Think about it; most dungeons don't begin that way. Someone has to finance and furnish the creation of a subterranean complex, then something has to happen to clear the place, usually of a magnitude large enough that it's not worth it to try and re-occupy the place to recoup the money lost. This usually results in it being "lost" as everyone who knew about it died, or the event that caused it to be abandoned also discourages it being reclaimed. After that, monsters have to move in and have enough time to properly accumulate wealth, set traps, etc. (when was the last time your adventuring party hit a dungeon as the monsters were moving in?). After that, the PCs then have to be the first ones to successfully "clear" the dungeon, which usually means that either there have been no previous groups, or they were killed.

That's a lot of conditions that need to be fulfilled just to have a dungeon be there. Given that all of these steps can't possibly be always met, and that "cleared" dungeons usually tend to stay cleared, then it becomes somewhat amazing that your PCs even have dungeons to find and explore. Think about real life...how many undiscovered dungeons do you expect to find in the real world? Most caves are charted; old castles tend to be historical preserves, etc.

Has anyone ever broached this in a campaign? That the era of "dungeon adventurers" is coming to end just because dungeons themselves are becoming extinct?

If I win, I'd like Chainmail Bikini.

 

[Sigurd]

Dungeons as treasure.

Thanks for the Download.

Especially in early level adventures, DM's tend to fall over backwards to create an elaborate space that is not too dangerous. The space is most often within reasonable traveling distance of the starting town, has stone walls and a minimum or local entanglements. Mostly they are independent locations created without thought to their construction cost or their feasibility as a stronghold\den\lair. Often the local populace is begging for someone to remove this source of fear and loathing.


On some occasions my character has entered a dungeon cleaned it of every last monster to bare stone walls. They have taken all the treasure, from a place that seems to have kept away invaders by its sheer reputation, and journeyed on to a dangerous city with cuthroats and higher level characters of various alignments not their own.

I always wonder "why did they leave?" At least half of them are more suited to the wilderness than the city anyway. Of the ones that head to the city, in a few levels they will be chomping at the bit to establish a keep but the dungeon, its stone, its excavations and even 'that marvelous fountain that healed them' (because the DM took pity on us) will have left their mind and evaporated.

Other questions I think about: Are they morally responsible for letting just anyone have it when they leave? Your characters kill 3 dozen various nasties and leave the twisted recess to spend their loot. Did they consecrate the bodies? Did they collapse the tunnels? Did their boasts of daring do alert the underworld of the local town to this great tunnel complex ? What will there reaction be when the revisit the sleepy town of homlet only to find that the new landlords of the space they cleared are 3 times more deadly and have killed everyone who helped them.

The WOTC Stronghold builders guide says that a simple jail cell (assume 40' feet) costs 500 gold to build. If an early level party can clear out a lair of another humanoid, monstous or otherwise, why shouldn't they adapt it as a base. True their neighbors might be viscious and mean but the previous owners survived and the party was tough enough to kill them. Even more the party has brains and time to fortify their new free form keep.


I know this is in some ways meta gaming at its worst, the adventure represents a challenge and the fun lies in the next challenge, but my frugal soul would sometimes give up my share of the portable treasure for clear title to the evacuated dungeon. It doesn't take many elaborate DM inventions to make me think -- hey if I expanded that....

The last meta question I ask myself when confronted with a big hole full of dangerous monsters. What would happen if we just collapsed and sealed all the exits and left? Not forever mind you just enough to put 3 months of starvation and hurt on the whole enemy crew. In the meantime the local population could be watched to find out if anyone was alarmed by the burying of this deadly pit of vipers -- they would probably be accomplices . Especially if they are mostly natural foes, 3 months without food and water should soften them up for sure. If everytime there was a bandit raid the party collapsed another bandit hide out the foes would be easier to find, just by process of elimination.


Sigurd


It is sort of vicious meta gaming. The DM picks rare elements to make a dungeon trek interesting to the party not to make them rich. Mostly you have to wink and go along with game conventions but sometimes ya gotta try the other approach.