WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Stoat]

Well, there’s only one riddle, and it is pretty difficult to discover.

Would you count the poem held by the gargoyle in Area 8 as a "riddle"? It looks like a riddle, but we couldn't get any kind of consensus on what the right answer to it might be.

I'm withholding judgment about the thesis put forth in the posts you quoted until I get to the end of the module.

However, I've got to say that I haven't seen a whole lot of clues or hints outside of the riddle in Area 3. Most of the folks who were advocating that Acererak plays fair seem to have dropped out of the discussion. I'd really like to hear from them. I would love it if there was an over-arching pattern or series of hidden clues or whatever that would allow cunning PC's to solve the ToH. But so far, I'm not really seeing it.

 

[Bullgrit]

How hard the riddle is to discover depends on how the DM plays it.

Yeah, this is an unfortunate aspect of this whole module. How the DM adjudicates the material – how much he deviates from the text as written, how easy or hard he makes it – can have a lot of influence on how well the PCs do in the Tomb.

If every "trick and trap requires taking precautions and protections, and then just testing" how is that not figuring things out?

True, but see below.

I counted at least 18 save-or-die obstacles (mostly poison- either spikes or asps, but a few others) which isn't really deadly given the saves at this level. But there are at least three TPKs that simply require making the wrong choice or getting unlucky. That's a lot of near certain death for one dungeon.

Good point. But I was taking issue with “utterly unmerciful and unforgiving.” Utterly = entirely, fully, wholly, totally. There’s a lot of non-lethal tricks and traps in the Tomb.

It's VERY possible to go thru the entire Tomb with hardly a scratch

Really, “VERY possible”? Maybe the one coward of the group, who hangs back and doesn’t actually do anything but follow the others after they’ve done the dangerous trial and error work. I just don’t see how it is even remotely possible . . . unless we have drastically different ideas of what is “hardly a scratch.”

I'd say, a lot of whether one thinks this is a "thinking person's dungeon" (as the module claims) depends on if one considers the "bomb-squad thinking" as a sufficient level of thinking to fulfill that claim.

Yeah, I’ll agree that bomb-squad thinking is thinking. But then, tactical thinking in hack-and-slash combat is thinking, too. It’s just that the “thinking” vibe the intro to this module gives, and the “thinking” hype that people who hold this module up as a brilliant masterpiece give, seems completely different to the “thinking” actually required by the adventure.

I mean, my idea of “thinking” is that given two doors, the Players can figure out from clues and hints and such which is the correct door to open and move through. But the “thinking” in this module is not in figuring out which door to open, but how to mitigate all the potential traps both doors will spring on you.

This dungeon is set up to give the players NOTHING. They will have to think and try and test at every obstacle to move forward.

Yes, I agree. But the quotes I was responding to above all suggest, (or outright state), that the dungeon is set up to give the Players EVERYTHING, and they just have to pay attention and figure out the clues/riddles/hints.

Would you count the poem held by the gargoyle in Area 8 as a "riddle"?

I forgot about that one. Probably because we couldn’t figure out if it was actually a clue riddle or non-sense red herring.

Most of the folks who were advocating that Acererak plays fair seem to have dropped out of the discussion. I'd really like to hear from them. I would love it if there was an over-arching pattern or series of hidden clues or whatever that would allow cunning PC's to solve the ToH. But so far, I'm not really seeing it.

Yeah, I noticed their absence, also.

Bullgrit

 

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by FoxWander
This dungeon is set up to give the players NOTHING. They will have to think and try and test at every obstacle to move forward.

Yes, I agree. But the quotes I was responding to above all suggest, (or outright state), that the dungeon is set up to give the Players EVERYTHING, and they just have to pay attention and figure out the clues/riddles/hints.

Sorry, reading this just made me post this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHxIssSROjk]300 give them nothing - YouTube[/ame]

 

[amerigoV]

As I’ve said before, this adventure, presented as a “thinking person’s module,” is mostly “bomb-squad thinking,” (use caution and protection, then test), and little/no “Sherlock Holmes deduction thinking,” (figure out the clues and hints).

...

This is a legitimate play style, (one that some people really enjoy), but I’m always left wondering why those who like this module always present it as the other play style. Why say there are clues and patterns when there obviously are not? Why say it’s a “thinking person’s module” when it’s more of a “cautious and meticulous person’s module”? There’s nothing wrong with cautious and meticulous play style if that is what the group likes/prefers.

Bullgrit

I might have to add this back to my list of what the poem accomplishes, but perhaps there is selection here. If a group gets through relatively unharmed, they probably can map a number of their decisions back to the poem. Of course, the groups that got slaughtered can point back and say the poem is just another trap/trick.

And they are both right. The module has been around for a long time and large number of groups have had a crack at it. The small number that "breezed" through it get to brag that their lucky choices are "skill" and have the poem to back them up.

Its really the same thing in the stock market. Given the number of investment managers, there is going to be SOMEONE that got through the 2000s without a negative year. They will claim skill, but it might just a streak of luck that will turn nasty (like flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row).

 

[GQuail]

After another week in the Tomb of Horros, I can report a bit on the earlier comments...

They opened the game with two castings of Commune and asked a wad of questions, more than half about the three-headed gargoyle in Area 11. (First question was "is it in our best interests to activate the gargoyle": cue many more questions assumign they needed to do some sort of combination of gem-feeding and other actions.) Even when they got it, they moved the object when it was still invisible and had to scurry around to find the bloody thing.

Area 15 and the door in the third pit went un-noticed for a fair bit. Despite Commune confirming the "O" door was the best way to advance they seemed puzzled whent hey reached the lava trap in Area 16 and doubled back to find the chests, test the two previous portals. (I almost got them into the orange one in the chapel... but testing with rats finally let them realise what it did.) When they failed, they went back to Area 16 to search for secret exits. It was only in sheer desperation that they started checking the whole way around the corridor and the pits.

As soon as they got through the Elf spotted the secret door and they explored the mummy-making room in Area 19... but when they couldn't find the secret door they headed back to the fake crypt in Area 18 and got involved in the fake final battle.

My group's highest level character is a Halfling Thief 12: everyone else is some sort of multi or dual class. Even if he doesn't have much in the way of HP, hitting the fake Lich's AC of -4 is /tough/. Similarly, with most of the spellcasters topping out at level 9 and having already burnt a few spells earlier, crossing the spell resistance threshold was a struggle. This is the only part of the dungeon I notably houseruled, dropping his AC to 0 and letting them through after 8 spell levels just to keep things from getting dull. Without that, they were only hitting him on 18-20 at best. (I'd be interesting to compare the pregens in the module and see how their to-hits and magic items will fare against this guy.)

When the cave-in started, they legged it. They'd had the split-second reactoon of the lava corridor earlier - no-one wanted to hesistate here! They moved at speed, with a few dexterity rolls to see if they stumbled into pits or dropped anything, and then got out as the whole thing collapsed, examining the map they recovered from the Lich's crypt.

I let them pack up their sheets and commit to playing Primetime Adventures the next week before I told them that they'd been had.

 

[GQuail]

I might have to add this back to my list of what the poem accomplishes, but perhaps there is selection here. If a group gets through relatively unharmed, they probably can map a number of their decisions back to the poem. Of course, the groups that got slaughtered can point back and say the poem is just another trap/trick.

And they are both right. The module has been around for a long time and large number of groups have had a crack at it. The small number that "breezed" through it get to brag that their lucky choices are "skill" and have the poem to back them up.

Its really the same thing in the stock market. Given the number of investment managers, there is going to be SOMEONE that got through the 2000s without a negative year. They will claim skill, but it might just a streak of luck that will turn nasty (like flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row).

I think this ties in well with the earlier comments about the poem more like a prophecy than a walkthrough. The poem is vague enough that we've been able to interpret it a number of different ways - and as Bullgrit mentioned, once you've suceeded it's easy to paint your plan as "obvious" when there's often a certain leap of faith involved.

Take the Gargoyle in Room 11 - in my group, several players resisted all urge to interact with it but one player was happy to keep pushing gems in. They were vindicated in the end but considering how everything else in the tomb works, the party can't be blamed for avoiding the item which initially just crushed 3 gems for no clear reason. And yet, otherwise there's no clear reason why it would crush gems the dungeon itself contained, and no way to test what feeding them all in does until it's too late.

If it had ended with that gargoygle coming alive and killing the player, then who would have said it was "obvious"? This isn't a remote possibility since a four armed gargoyle is actually present in the dungeon! Similarly, people who succeed by virtue of their interpretation of the poem can point to it and insist the clues are all there, but they seem hidden so well not even people who know the answer can see it.

 

[amerigoV]

I let them pack up their sheets and commit to playing Primetime Adventures the next week before I told them that they'd been had.

Ha! Stupid players! Be sure to tell them how disappointed you are in their inferior play.

 

[GQuail]

Really, “VERY possible”? Maybe the one coward of the group, who hangs back and doesn’t actually do anything but follow the others after they’ve done the dangerous trial and error work. I just don’t see how it is even remotely possible . . . unless we have drastically different ideas of what is “hardly a scratch.”

I don't know how you square that up with your earlier comment about "Many of the tricks and traps are not particularly deadly. Some are just annoyances and attrition."

Lots of the traps deal smallish HP, in the region of 1d6. Most of the monster fights are optional, although admittedly most groups are going to bump into at least one or two. If level 10-14 characters are only taking a couple of D6 damage then they probably not that worried, especially not the fighters.

Now, it's undeniably possible to take way more damage than that - opening the line of secret doors is an exercise in taking endless amounts of damage unless your players think sharp - but I don't think you need to be "cowardly" to take small damage. I also don't think it's about being smart, mind - just lucky, picking the quickest path through the dungeon and figuring out the gimmicks to some of the traps quickly.

 

[Bullgrit]

I don't know how you square that up with your earlier comment about "Many of the tricks and traps are not particularly deadly. Some are just annoyances and attrition."

"Not particularly deadly" does not mean "does nothing." There is plenty of minor to moderate damage potential throughout the Tomb. There are also some deadly traps. I'm saying I just don't see how there is a realistic possibility of getting through the whole Tomb with "hardly a scratch."

If you're thinking "hardly a scratch" means ending the adventure with less than 10 damage because the cleric healed you, that is different than my thinking of "hardly a scratch" means taking less than 10 damage total, throughout.

I think, going through the Tomb, *someone* is going to take a good deal of damage, at least, throughout. One PC may be able to get through without taking that damage, by hanging back and letting others do the work. But that's not really a fair judge of the danger in the place.

Bullgrit

 

[Stoat]

Given that a PC can operate at full effectiveness with less than max hit points, that healing magic at levels 10 to 14 is fairly easy to come by, and that there is no penalty for stopping to rest in the tomb, I tend to discount the risk posed by direct hit point damage in the ToH.

Which I guess means that I'm in the camp that thinks "hardly a scratch" means the thief fell in a couple of pits, took 3d6 hits of damage and was forced to pass one or two saves vs. poison.

The shortest route from Area 3 to Area 18 is this:

1. Avoid the pit traps in Area 3.

2. Activate the Archway at Area 5 and proceed through Area 11 to Area 10.

3. Find the crawlspace behind the black sphere in Area 10 and take it.

4. Find the secret door leading into Area 14.

5. Use a magic ring to access Area 15.

6. Avoid the two pit traps after Area 15.

7. Enter the third pit and find the Secret Door (Area 17.)

IMO, the worst is yet to come. The only unavoidable risk so far are the pit traps -- any one of which could kill a PC. Other risks include the Great Green Devil (deadly), the Archway in Area 10 (not deadly, but strips the PC of all gear), the poison gas in Area 14 (not deadly), the exploding altar in Area 14 (will possibly kill PC's with low hit points who muff their saves), and the Archway in Area 14 (gender reassignment and alignment change).

Of course, this presupposes that the PC's follow the correct path. Groups who head toward the Tormentor will have to deal with the Gargoyle and the Magic Bolts in Area 9. Groups who screw up Area 5 have to deal with the pit trap in Area 7. Groups who detour to Area 13 will probably have one or two combat encounters.

It is possible that a group could get this deep into the Tomb without losing a single hit point, but I think that's extremely unlikely. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if a group made it this far without suffering a single death.