WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Umbran]

Please try not to inflate my remarks out of context, and I'll try not to step so hard on your OCD triggers.

Dude, suggesting that someone's disagreeing with you due to mental illness, even in jest, is rude and dismissive. We expect you to treat your fellow posters with respect, not address them with ad hominem nonsense.

I hope that's abundantly clear. If you've got questions or comments, please take it to e-mail or PM with one of the moderators, thank you.

 

[jonesy]

It was one of the first ten modules ever published and literally the first tournament module ever published, so I think Gary can be forgiven if it's a little... uneven, shall we say.

That's a good point. Thinking about it as a tournament prototype makes many of the things commented on here make more sense.

But that still doesn't change what the Tomb is like, and it's looking more and more capricious.

 

[Bullgrit]

It was one of the first ten modules ever published and literally the first tournament module ever published, so I think Gary can be forgiven if it's a little... uneven, shall we say.

I think Tomb of Horrors suffers mostly from its own latter-day hype and reputation. It used to be just another D&D module. Its concept and play style are different than the standard of the time -- compare to the Giants tournament modules and the Slavers tournament modules, etc. -- and that served to make it stand out a bit in its day. But, still, it was just a tournament module that Gygax whipped together for an upcoming convention. He didn't write it as a magnus opus. It was just a fun romp for a play style that some folks liked and some folks didn't.

Then, 20+ years later, people talk about it as a brilliant masterpiece. The hype and reputation that has built up around it have far exceeded anything the text in the book could realistically meet. Its no longer just one of many tournament modules produced for D&D in the early days, it is The Tomb of Horrors!, "Quake in fear oh whimpy Players! This is the Ultimate Test of your skill!"

Bullgrit

 

[amerigoV]

Then, 20+ years later, people talk about it as a brilliant masterpiece. The hype and reputation that has built up around it have far exceeded anything the text in the book could realistically meet.

Bullgrit

I give you proof of its greatness:

Find me any other thread on this board ever that has gone 20+ pages that (1) is still on topic to the original post (2) has not devolved into Clintonian logic over the definition of words to prove obscure points, and (3) aside from a few minor exceptions, has remained extremely civil regardless of disagreeing points.

I would nominate this is the best thread ever on this board, and one I eagerly await updates on (all others fall into the Rule of 2 - there is nothing of value past page 2 on the original topic).

Back to the topic:
One poster mentioned "Avoid Green if you can" for Room 21 in reference to the curtain. Are their other lines in the poem that carry weight throughout the Tomb? I have always thought the peom was somewhat sequencial, but perhaps it is not.

 

[Stoat]

[MENTION=26651]amerigoV[/MENTION]

Without getting too far ahead of myself, the poem is loosely sequential. The first few lines apply to the route from Area 3 to the Chapel. The next few lines (seemingly) apply to the route from the Chapel to the Pillared Hall (this is where we are now). The last few lines seem to apply to the route from the Pillared Hall to the end of the module.

That said, I keep looking for places where the poem calls back to itself. In other words, I keep expecting to see places where green is bad and black is the right path forward. For the most part, I am not seeing that.

Next up is Area 22, which is a weird one. With good luck, I'll get to it first thing tomorrow morning.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

I give you proof of its greatness:

Find me any other thread on this board ever that has gone 20+ pages that (1) is still on topic to the original post (2) has not devolved into Clintonian logic over the definition of words to prove obscure points, and (3) aside from a few minor exceptions, has remained extremely civil regardless of disagreeing points.

I would nominate this is the best thread ever on this board, and one I eagerly await updates on (all others fall into the Rule of 2 - there is nothing of value past page 2 on the original topic).

This sounds more like proof of the greatness of this thread, with which I whole-heartedly agree. I agree with Bullgrit: this module is at best way over-hyped.

 

[Freakohollik]

I think Tomb of Horrors suffers mostly from its own latter-day hype and reputation. It used to be just another D&D module. Its concept and play style are different than the standard of the time -- compare to the Giants tournament modules and the Slavers tournament modules, etc. -- and that served to make it stand out a bit in its day. But, still, it was just a tournament module that Gygax whipped together for an upcoming convention. He didn't write it as a magnus opus. It was just a fun romp for a play style that some folks liked and some folks didn't.

Then, 20+ years later, people talk about it as a brilliant masterpiece. The hype and reputation that has built up around it have far exceeded anything the text in the book could realistically meet. Its no longer just one of many tournament modules produced for D&D in the early days, it is The Tomb of Horrors!, "Quake in fear oh whimpy Players! This is the Ultimate Test of your skill!"

Bullgrit

I didn't think we'd get into an evaluation of the entire module until we'd finished all the rooms, but this is one module that I will always defend and Bullgrit has been bashing it for 20 pages. This module has more clever ideas and ingenuity in its 10 pages than anything else. The rooms, puzzles, and traps here are like nothing you will read anywhere else.

It's not runable as-is for most groups. Some rooms aren't designed well. But if you want to use your mind and test how good you are against a dungeon when there aren't dice to roll, this is the only module ever written that will give you that.

Futhermore, this is one of the only modules that is filled with things I couldn't think up. It's a module that is doing more than saving me the trouble of writing my own adventure.

It has more ingenuity than anything else. It's the only module of it's kind. And even after reading it, I can't duplicate it. That's why, despite all the flaws, it is one of the greatest.

 

[Stoat]

Area 22. The Cavern of Gold and Silver Mists

Past Area 21 the PC's go down a staircase to a long corridor. The corridor runs about 40 feet to a four-way intersection. There is a pit trap in the intersection. If the party keeps going east, they eventually come to Area 22.

Area 22 appears to be a natural cavern. It is filled with gold and silver mist. At the center of the cavern is a beautiful grotto. The whole place radiates a dim aura of good.

The mists are poisonous. Any PC who enters must save versus poison or have their intelligence drop to 2. Breathing "the clean air above ground under the warm sun." Will restore the afflicted PC's intelligence. So will a touch from the Siren who lives here.

See, as a private joke, Acererak has imprisoned a lovely Siren in this room. Here she is:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic22.jpg

The Siren is friendly and will talk to the PC's. She cannot leave the room unless she is asked, but an enchantment keeps her from just coming out and saying that. Also, she doesn't know anything about the rest of the Tomb.

There are also two bags in the room. You can see them in the picture. The larger bag is actually a small bag of holding that contains a few coins. The smaller bag contains a random object anything from fluffy wool to a ring of feather falling.

Of course, there's a catch to all this. The PC's can take either the Siren or the large bag or the small bag out of the room. They can only take one of the three. If the PC's touch a bag, the Siren and the other bag disappear. If they ask the Siren to come with, both bags disappear.

IMO: On the one hand, I really like the concept of this room. It has an "enchanted fey" vibe that feels like a myth or a fairy tale. It's also a role-playing encounter, which is a nice change of pace from the rest of the Tomb.

On the other hand, the fey vibe seems a little out of place in the Tomb. Worse, there is no clue in the module to warn the players that they need to make a choice between the Siren, Bag A and Bag B. Because the players don't know the stakes, they can't make an informed decision. This means that they can't agonize too much about what to do. My guess is that most groups sort of blunder through this Area, accidentally pick up one of the bags, and then spend the rest of the night wondering what they missed.

 

[terrya]

This sounds more like proof of the greatness of this thread, with which I whole-heartedly agree. I agree with Bullgrit: this module is at best way over-hyped.

I fail to see how. What this thread has done is highlight that the module is not designed for social gamers or 4E lovers. I dont want to derail the thread so ill leave it with the fact this is probably one of the 5 best modules of all time, all 5 were written by Gary him self and all were written in a way that they were designed to be inconsistant and for the odds to be stacked against you. What you call flaws are what made D&D and these modules in particular a great success.

 

[Stoat]

I fail to see how. What this thread has done is highlight that the module is not designed for social gamers or 4E lovers. I dont want to derail the thread so ill leave it with the fact this is probably one of the 5 best modules of all time, all 5 were written by Gary him self and all were written in a way that they were designed to be inconsistant and for the odds to be stacked against you. What you call flaws are what made D&D and these modules in particular a great success.

What prompted me to start this thread were a number of comments suggesting that S1 was not designed to be inconsistent and that the odds were not stacked against the PC's. Lots of people suggested that the Tomb was "fair," that Acererak gave the players a "walkthrough," and that smart players could figure out the how to avoid the traps using clues presented in the module.

As for the module's popularity, I think there are several reasons for it. For one thing, the Tomb of Horrors is old. It was written in 1975 and first published in 1978. In other words, it's older than AD&D. It was there at the beginning, and that fact alone is going to give some cachet.

Moreover, and more important, the Tomb is different from the vast majority of published adventures. It is extremely light on combat. So far, the only unavoidable fight we've seen is the grey ocher jelly in Area 19. As far as I know, it is the only classic module based around tricks and puzzles instead of monster encounters. It sticks out, and people remember it for that reason.

Further, the encounters we've looked at so far are memorable. We can argue about whether the Great Green Devil or the gender-bending Chapel or the Agitated Chamber are fair, but I think we can all agree that they stick in the mind. The encounters are original and weird. They present unusual challenges, and failing to meet those challenges results not just in death, but in strange and gruesome outcomes. PC's might be disintegrated, they might wind up naked back where they started, they might have their gender reversed, they might get turned into slime. You don't forget something like that. You talk about it for years after it happens.

Finally, Gygax talked a big game about the Tomb. Check out a few quotes from Wikipedia: "There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill—and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters. Specifically, I had in mind foiling Rob Kuntz's PC, Robilar, and Ernie Gygax's PC, Tenser." Gygax wanted to be "ready for those fans [players] who boasted of having mighty PCs able to best any challenge offered by the AD&D game." When Gary Gygax says that he wrote a module to test the most expert players with the mightiest PC's, he's going to get attention.