WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Bullgrit]

As for the module's popularity, I think there are several reasons for it. For one thing, the Tomb of Horrors is old. It was written in 1975 and first published in 1978. In other words, it's older than AD&D. It was there at the beginning, and that fact alone is going to give some cachet.

Moreover, and more important, the Tomb is different from the vast majority of published adventures. It is extremely light on combat. So far, the only unavoidable fight we've seen is the grey ocher jelly in Area 19. As far as I know, it is the only classic module based around tricks and puzzles instead of monster encounters.

Further, the encounters we've looked at so far are memorable. We can argue about whether the Great Green Devil or the gender-bending Chapel or the Agitated Chamber are fair, but I think we can all agree that they stick in the mind. The encounters are original and weird. They present unusual challenges, and failing to meet those challenges results not just in death, but in strange and gruesome outcomes. PC's might be disintegrated, they might wind up naked back where they started, they might have their gender reversed, they might get turned into slime. You don't forget something like that. You talk about it for years after it happens.

All true enough to be repeated.

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

Area 22. The Cavern of Gold and Silver Mists

IMO: On the one hand, I really like the concept of this room. It has an "enchanted fey" vibe that feels like a myth or a fairy tale. It's also a role-playing encounter, which is a nice change of pace from the rest of the Tomb.

I agree with this opinion.

On the other hand, the fey vibe seems a little out of place in the Tomb. Worse, there is no clue in the module to warn the players that they need to make a choice between the Siren, Bag A and Bag B. Because the players don't know the stakes, they can't make an informed decision. This means that they can't agonize too much about what to do. My guess is that most groups sort of blunder through this Area, accidentally pick up one of the bags, and then spend the rest of the night wondering what they missed.

I agree with this, too.

Something that bugs me about this room is, why are the contents of the bag random? This makes no sense for something that can't be repeatedly tried, (by the same or a later party -- the bags disappear), and for something that should be solid set across games for tournament play. I mean, two groups could make the same decision and take the same action, yet one might randomly get a bag of wool and the other gets a ring of featherfall, or a batch of healing potions. The right or wrong answer, a good or bad or neutral outcome, seems based on random guess and/or random die roll, not on smart/clever/wise play.

Bullgrit

 

[terrya]

I would agree your reason for starting the thread may be justified, in the sence the module is not fair by the standard your setting but it was certinaly no more unfair than any other module. Your trying to sell the tomb as somthing hugely different to the rest of D&D, an opinion widly shared. But the simple turth of it is the things complained about in this thread, inconcinsties, random rooms, no clues as to the exsistance of traps or hints on what path to take, were in every Gary written or even Greyhawk based module. Read through the caves of chaos or temple of elemental evil. You will find examples of everything found in the tomb on a smaller slightly different scale but the princable remained the same. All the tomb did was gather the best bits of D&D and put them alltogther! (hence the dificulty level)

 

[Bullgrit]

Read through the caves of chaos or temple of elemental evil. You will find examples of everything found in the tomb on a smaller slightly different scale but the princable remained the same.

Funny you should use Keep on the Borderlands and Temple of Elemental Evil as examples for this premise. KotB and ToEE are in my top three favorite adventure modules of all time. I am quite familiar with them.

And I see no game style similarity between them and Tomb of Horrors. ToH is a completely different beast by intentional design.

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

Area 22. The Cavern of Gold and Silver Mists

Past Area 21 the PC's go down a staircase to a long corridor. The corridor runs about 40 feet to a four-way intersection. There is a pit trap in the intersection. If the party keeps going east, they eventually come to Area 22.

I've been going over my old notes because I couldn't remember this section at all. And I don't think anyone ever went to 22.

The first party I played in didn't get this far.

The second party I played in went straight through 23, the secret trapdoor, and onward without losses (or gains) in this section.

The remnants of the first party I DM'd through here lost one PC to the spear trap in the south passage, and the rest went straight through 23 and got squashed in the sleep passage.

The remaining three of the paranoid wizard's team (the rogue and a cleric and a fighter) found the secret trapdoor near #23 and kept moving.

The third party I DM'd dissolved because of player problems before the adventure made it here, and left.

The fourth party I DM'd was in Return, and I can't find my notes on that. But they did something to bypass this section, I'm sure of that.

And then there was the 4E supermodule, which is different.

Because the players don't know the stakes, they can't make an informed decision. This means that they can't agonize too much about what to do. My guess is that most groups sort of blunder through this Area, accidentally pick up one of the bags, and then spend the rest of the night wondering what they missed.

I would think that the siren would be the first thing the party takes notice of?

 

[Stoat]

Something that bugs me about this room is, why are the contents of the bag random? This makes no sense for something that can't be repeatedly tried, (by the same or a later party -- the bags disappear), and for something that should be solid set across games for tournament play. I mean, two groups could make the same decision and take the same action, yet one might randomly get a bag of wool and the other gets a ring of featherfall, or a batch of healing potions. The right or wrong answer, a good or bad or neutral outcome, seems based on random guess and/or random die roll, not on smart/clever/wise play.

I think the random element would make sense if there were some way for the players to know the stakes. Group A could choose to go with a certain reward. Group B could take a calculated risk and possible gain a larger reward. Of course, the module doesn't give any way for the players to undertake that analysis.

I think I'm going to steal this encounter for my own home game. My initial thought is that the Siren won't be able to speak directly about her situation, but her evasive answers will provide clues that the players can use to suss out what's going on.

 

[Stoat]

I would think that the siren would be the first thing the party takes notice of?

True, but the bags don't disappear until the PC's invite the Siren to join them. I imagine that the players will be deeply suspicious of her, particularly when she can't give a straight answer to their questions. So, my guess is that most groups touch one of the bags first.

Obviously, a lot rides on how the DM portrays the Siren, and the module doesn't give a lot of guidance for that.

 

[Bullgrit]

Things to consider:

Is there any way of safely entering the mist? The save is vs. poison, and the cure is to breathe clear air, but the text doesn't say that breathing the mist is the danger. It says, "entering the mist," causes the effect. So can a PC hold his breath and enter to grab a bag?

The text for the fear gas in area 18 specifically says the PCs can hold their breath to avoid the effects. But no such info for area 22. The mist has the same effect as the siren's touch, so there is some suggestion of just being in, (touched by), the mist inflicts the effect.

Also, visibility is limited to six feet in the mist, but the "beautiful grotto in which dwells the siren," with the two sacks, is over 30 feet into the room. So to even encounter the siren and see the bags, the PCs have to enter the mist.

If the siren comes out of her grotto and approaches within six feet of the edge, so the party outside the mist can see her, the bags are still out of sight.

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

RE: the poem.

Go back to the tormentor or through the arch,
and the second great hall you’ll discover.
Shun green if you can, but night’s good color
is for those of great valor.
If shades of red stand for blood the wise
will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
magical metal - you’re well along your march.
Two pits along the way will be found to lead
to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall.
These keys and those are most important of all,
and beware of trembling hands and what will maul.
If you find the false you find the true
and into the columned hall you’ll come,
and there the throne that’s key and keyed.
The iron men of visage grim do more than
meets the viewer’s eye.
You’ve left and left and found my Tomb
and now your soul will die.

If you find the false, you find the true.

At the intersection there is a false door to the south.
To the east is a real door leading to 22.
And there is a false door to the north, behind which is a secret door, behind which is a secret trapdoor, and past the trapdoor is a route north.
The trapdoor is the good route. Continuing north past the trapdoor is bad and takes you to the sleep trap.

If the party goes south and then east, they'll assume the poem meant the false door south, and the real door east.

If the party goes east, they'll find the real door, and not think the poem appropriate here.

If the party goes north, they'll find the false door, and then the secret door, and to my mind think the path is good, and then they'll head north into the sleep trap. And not into the secret trapdoor, which is the good path.

The poem doesn't fit here even if they do what it assumes they'll do in the order it assumes them to.

 

[jonesy]

The text for the fear gas in area 18 specifically says the PCs can hold their breath to avoid the effects. But no such info for area 22.

I'd assume that the same is true here, since it doesn't offer anything different.

Also, visibility is limited to six feet in the mist, but the "beautiful grotto in which dwells the siren," with the two sacks, is over 30 feet into the room. So to even encounter the siren and see the bags, the PCs have to enter the mist.

If the siren comes out of her grotto and approaches within six feet of the edge, so the party outside the mist can see her, the bags are still out of sight.

I think Stoat is right about the importance of playing the siren, but I'd take it even further and say that this entire section depends entirely on how the DM plays it.