WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[FoxWander]

Yeah, that whole excerpt from the DMG seems unnecessarily antagonistic to PC. Along with the sword bit seeming out of place, there's this part:

"An elf doesn't detect secret doors 16%% of the time by merely passing them unless he or she is actually Concentrating on the act. "​

Which is directly at odds with the ability write-up under elves in the PHB:

"Secret or concealed doors are difficult to hide from elves. Merely passing within 10' of the latter makes an elven character 16 213% ( 1 in 6) likely to notice it." (emphasis added)​

At least the gnome and dwarf abilities mentioned mirror their write-ups in the PH racial descriptions.

... But now we're getting pretty off-topic- this isn't a critique of 1E D&D's idiosyncrasies, it's about the Tomb's. And as far as it's, shall we say, "uneven" pacing and expectations, I'll just say this: perhaps the Tomb would be better summed up not so much as "thinking person's" dungeon but more of a CAREFUL person's dungeon.

 

[Joshua Randall]

"A character with a sword must have it out and be thinking about its power in order for the weapon to communicate anything to him and her."

What the heck does that mean?

I always figured it was a reference to swords (and possibly other magic items) that can detect traps / treasure / secret doors / etc.

As to why it's in that section -- dude, have you read the 1e DMG? Organization is not its strong point!

 

[jonesy]

As to why it's in that section -- dude, have you read the 1e DMG? Organization is not its strong point!

I've read it, but I don't think I've ever understood it.

Yeah, that whole excerpt from the DMG seems unnecessarily antagonistic to PC. Along with the sword bit seeming out of place, there's this part:

"An elf doesn't detect secret doors 16%% of the time by merely passing them unless he or she is actually Concentrating on the act. "​

Which is directly at odds with the ability write-up under elves in the PHB:

"Secret or concealed doors are difficult to hide from elves. Merely passing within 10' of the latter makes an elven character 16 213% ( 1 in 6) likely to notice it." (emphasis added)​

So the open-to-all players guide is saying that the player of the elf doesn't need to do much anything to find secret doors.

But the DM-only book is basically saying that the players guide isn't privy to that information? That's very sneaky.

Has anyone made a comparison of the two to see if this was a consistent thing, or just an anomaly? I'd be interested in reading one.

 

[Bullgrit]

I'd suggest taking the DMG discussion to a new thread. Feel free to repost that DMG page image -- it's an image on my site.

Bullgrit

 

[jonesy]

Just wondering if someone had already done one. I very briefly considered getting into it myself, but then I took a look at my copies of the PHB and DMG and.. oh boy.

 

[Zombie Toast]

I wrote up my Pathfinder conversion of the Tomb into a pdf available here if anyone's interested. It also includes rules for running the Tomb with Savage Worlds and PDQ.

 

[Stoat]

Area 23. False/True Door

As mentioned before, the hallway leading from Area 21 eventually reaches a four-way intersection. Area 22 is to the east. A trapped false door is to the south. Area 23 is to the north.

This area starts with a false door. -- a normal-looking door that opens onto a blank wall. The module doesn't say if its trapped like the other false doors in the Tomb. The blank wall is actually a secret door. It opens onto a 10 foot wide hallway running north. There's a staircase and a door leading east at the end of this hall.

The stairs and door are a decoy. The right way forward is a secret trap door set in the floor immediately past the secret door. The trap door leads to a narrow tunnel that eventually takes the PC's to Area 25. The Pillared Throne Room.

What if you miss the secret trap door and head north? As best I can tell, the stairs are a dead end. The east door leads to a short hallway with a pair of double doors facing north at the end of it.

Opening the double doors triggers a trap. Sleep gas fills the area and everyone instantly falls asleep for 2-8 turns. There is no saving throw. Each turn the PC's are asleep, the DM rolls a d4. On a roll of 4, this guy:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic23.jpg

comes out of a room to the north and trundles 1d6x10 squares along the hallway. Everything the juggernaut passes over is "squashed to a pulp."

IMO: Here's an answer for why PC's might decide to explore the mists of Area 22. They miss the secret door at Area 23 or the secret trapdoor behind that, and they backtrack to see if Area 22 is the way forward.

The correct path requires the PC's to find a secret door hidden behind a false door and then to find a secret trap door behind that. Acererak's riddle hints at this with the phrase, "If you find the false you find the true." I'm not sure that hint is worth much, however, mostly because there are any number of false things in this part of the Tomb: a false lich in Area 18; and a a false door south of Area 23 for starters.

On the other hand, if the false door at Area 23 isn't trapped, then it's different from other false doors in the Tomb, and that might be a hint for observant parties to notice.

Even if the PC's are thinking to look for secret doors, finding them is probably a matter of luck or magic. The module doesn't specify any particular means of finding the two secret doors, so that leaves rolling to search (Luck) or using spells to detect them (magic).

Is there any warning or clue about the juggernaut in the module? I don't see one. And I'm not really sure how that part of the encounter is supposed to work.

First. There are two corridors past the False/True door. The first is an east-west hallway that's 30 feet long. A single door is set in the west wall. A pair of double doors is set in the north wall at the end. Those doors open onto another hallway -- one that's 40 feet long. The module says that a "passage full of sleep gas [] is reached by the east door." When the double doors are opened, "everyone in that passage will instantly collapse into slumber." Which passage are these two quotes talking about? The first passage that leads up to the double doors, or the passage behind the double doors?

Second, when the juggernaut shows up, it rolls 10 to 60 feet, crushing all in its path. Then what? Does it keep going or does it stop?

Third, what about elves? Aren't they immune to magical sleep?

I'm genuinely confused, and I'd like to hear how folks who have run this encounter approached it.

 

[jonesy]

First. There are two corridors past the False/True door. The first is an east-west hallway that's 30 feet long. A single door is set in the west wall. A pair of double doors is set in the north wall at the end. Those doors open onto another hallway -- one that's 40 feet long. The module says that a "passage full of sleep gas [] is reached by the east door." When the double doors are opened, "everyone in that passage will instantly collapse into slumber." Which passage are these two quotes talking about? The first passage that leads up to the double doors, or the passage behind the double doors?

"When the doors to the north (which open to the sleep gas area) are opened, everyone in that passage will instantly collapse In slumber for 2-8 turns."

I think that means the doors into the 20x20 room "which open back to the sleep gas area". And the sleep gas area would be the passage into which the juggernaut rolls, which is both the north-south passage leading to the 20x20 and the east-west passage after it. Otherwise no-one would ever be inside the sleep gas area when the trap is triggered.

Second, when the juggernaut shows up, it rolls 10 to 60 feet, crushing all in its path. Then what? Does it keep going or does it stop?

I think it retreats back to the 20x20 room it was in. Otherwise the party would be the first party ever to trigger it, since it isn't still standing in the hallway.

Third, what about elves? Aren't they immune to magical sleep?

Good question. But does everyone need to be sleeping, or just some, for the effect to apply? It just says "every turn of slumber". I'd assume that the doors trigger both the sleep gas, and the juggernaut.

A thing to note here is that the juggernaut trap specifically says that everyone is crushed, there is no appeal. That's harsh.

 

[Bullgrit]

Area 23. False/True Door

I swear, it’s like the man just can’t write this thing in an orderly and easily followable format. You have area 23 describing the false/secret door, and then 80 feet down the corridor, through another door, you have 23A describing another doorway and further corridor, completely unrelated to 23.

Because of the nature of this trap, (confusing), I thought I’d quote the text:

The most likely place that will be found, however, is the passage full of sleep gas which is reached by the east door. When the doors to the north (which open to the sleep gas area) are opened, everyone in that passage will instantly collapse in slumber for 2-8 turns. Each turn of slumber roll a d4, and if a 4 results, a stone juggernaut (rather like a steam roller) comes out of the 20’x20’ room to the north and rolls 1-6 spaces (10’-60’) south then west as determined by a roll of d6. Everything it rolls over is squashed to a pulp. There is no appeal. (If the party is in this way destroyed, show them GRAPHIC #23.)

As Stoat mentions, this is a confusing situation. Where is the gas? Which hallway? Does it hang in the first hall, or does it come in when a door is opened to the second hall? Is it visible? Is this poison or magic? Can the PCs hold their breath? Does it matter: no save? Does each victim get his own 2-8 duration, or is the whole party out for the same length of time? Is there any clue for the PCs to avoid this trap?

Now, although any DM worth the initials can make a ruling on how this works, for a tournament game supposedly to test the Players, leaving a convoluted trap up to DM interpretation is a bad thing. Two groups could make the same decisions and take the same actions here, but depending on DM interpretation, one group could have a game-ending TPK, and another group could fully survive, (with some PCs pulling the sleeping PCs out of harm’s way before the juggernaut comes out).

Looking at the map and reading the text, I can come up with at least three different, (reasonable), theories on how this trap works. And each way means drastic different results for the PCs. Again, a tournament module meant to test the Players should not be so vague that different DMs can come to vastly different interpretations. For something so complicated and potentially deadly to an entire party, it should be clear to the DM reading the text how it works.

Also, I have to point out the most interesting note in this text: “Everything it rolls over is squashed to a pulp. There is no appeal.”

No appeal? Ha! Can the Players make an appeal to avoid death with other traps? To whom do Players direct their appeal in other cases?

DM: The juggernaut rolls over you and squashes you to a pulp!
Player: What?
DM: *banging fist on game table* No appeal!

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

Otherwise the party would be the first party ever to trigger it, since it isn't still standing in the hallway.

What is the assumption with this adventure? Are the PCs the first to explore the Tomb? Or have there been others, (and will be others), and the Tomb gets "reset" after each attempt?

There are several areas in the Tomb where either the PCs are the first to come in or the environment has been reset since the last invasion.

Bullgrit