WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

I agree that the wording is unclear, but I think that the gas is meant to fill the east-west corridor, and it activates when the double doors to the north are opened at which point all of the PCs in the hallway fall asleep.

shmoo2's analysis demonstrates that this is less of a deathtrap than it seems at first glance. I didn't realize in my first reading that you only roll for the juggernaut once and then it stops (or goes back into its cubbyhole).

I've never played the original ToH, only the 4e conversion, which is fairly faithful in many places but tends to tone down the "sorry, you all died" instant traps. The juggernaut in that version is a mobile trap that moves in a random direction every round until the PCs flee. So even though the 4e version is neutered in some ways, in other ways this encounter is more deadly than the original, since it continues until the PCs flee the area (and they may well be tempted to explore behind it).

 

[jonesy]

I've never played the original ToH, only the 4e conversion, which is fairly faithful in many places but tends to tone down the "sorry, you all died" instant traps. The juggernaut in that version is a mobile trap that moves in a random direction every round until the PCs flee. So even though the 4e version is neutered in some ways, in other ways this encounter is more deadly than the original, since it continues until the PCs flee the area (and they may well be tempted to explore behind it).

This is the DM Rewards conversion? Where does the sleep gas fall in it? And what triggers it?

 

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

This is the DM Rewards conversion? Where does the sleep gas fall in it? And what triggers it?

Right, the DM Rewards conversion, which is a straightforward conversion of the original Tomb, with no added bits.

In this version, the sleep gas fills everything north of the false secret door (so including the first north/south hallway, the east/west hallway, the hallway leading to the juggernaut's room, and the little room itself. It activates when the PCs open the door in the first north/south corridor that leads to the east/west corridor (the door next to the dead-end stairs).

I think this is a very different reading than what the 1e module describes, but then, the whole encounter is a different animal in that the juggernaut comes out and continues moving until the PCs leave, and that the sleep gas allows many opportunities for the PCs to avoid falling asleep.

 

[Stoat]

I thought there was something to the idea that the Juggernaut keeps going until it crashes down the stairs. For one thing, it explains why there's a dead-end staircase in the Tomb. On the other hand, it turns Area 23a into an almost-certain TPK.

The module text is pretty vague. I think the best interpretation is that the Juggernaut only moves 10-60 feet and stops, but I can also see a DM deciding that the Juggernaut is supposed to keep going.

 

[Joshua Randall]

FWIW, when we played this, the Juggernaut kept going.

And that is how everyone else I personally know always played/DM'd it. Small sample size and anecdotal, but there you go.

IMO, it's a pretty crappy trap if the Juggernaut just rolls out a bit and then stops. It seems much more in keeping with the Tomb's ruthless lethality for it to keep going.

 

[Bullgrit]

It seems much more in keeping with the Tomb's ruthless lethality for it to keep going.

Here's something to consider:

Are we seeing that the Tomb *is* actually ruthlessly lethal?

We've seen some traps/tricks that aren't lethal at all -- the idiot mist, the stripping arch, the sex change arch, the weakness gas, the false crypt cave in, etc.

We've seen some traps/tricks that can be lethal if the damage builds up -- the zapping secret doors, the spear false doors, the exploding altar, plus the combats, etc.

We've seen some traps that can be lethal if a victim fails an arguably easy saving throw -- poison spike pit traps, etc.

And we've seen a few traps that can be lethal depending on DM interpretation:
- the tilting corridor into the fire -- the victim(s) can potentially retreat after they discover the danger and before it's too late.
- the green slime tapestry -- the victim(s) have to be holding the tapestry at the right moment, (and even then there's a 25% chance of the trap not happening).
- this juggernaut -- does it keep moving forward, or does it retreat?

And we've seen at least one trap that definitely is lethal -- the great green devil sphere of annihilation.

Now, I'm not saying the Tomb can not be deadly, that it's just a cake walk. Many PCs can and have died in the Tomb. But from what I'm seeing so far, it looks more like how "ruthless" the Tomb is relies more on how ruthless the DM wants to interpret the text, and wants the Tomb to be.

Take this juggernaut, for instance. The text is so vague that different competent DMs can come to very different interpretations of how the trap works. If one DM wants this trap to be ruthlessly lethal, he can rule the juggernaut keeps moving forward, and a TPK can result. If another DM doesn't feel especially ruthless, he can rule the juggernaut returns to its room after each roll out, and there might not be any death at all from this trap. Neither of these interpretations are definitely wrong, by the text as written. And then there's ruling on where the sleep gas is, and where/when it is triggered.

What I'm seeing, so far, with the Tomb of Horrors, is that its ruthlessness is very dependent on the individual DM.

This a good thing because each home group's play experience in the Tomb can be very different, depending on the DM's (and Players') personal style. This is a benefit for hobby games.

This is a bad thing because each tournament table group's play experience in the Tomb can be very different, depending on the DM's (and Players') personal style. This is a detriment to organized/judged/scored games.

Bullgrit

 

[Zombie Toast]

I originally thought the juggernaut kept moving, I didn't even notice that it didn't explicitly say that until you guys brought it up.

Personally, if I ever get a group willing to go through the tomb, I'll probably have it keep moving. But I'll also make sure to roll the sleep duration individually for each character. That gives a better chance that there's one or two characters awake when the juggernaut begins rolling.

 

[Bullgrit]

Personally, if I ever get a group willing to go through the tomb, I'll probably have it keep moving. But I'll also make sure to roll the sleep duration individually for each character. That gives a better chance that there's one or two characters awake when the juggernaut begins rolling.

This sounds awesome to me. Having someone witness the juggernaut moving, (and possibly squishing someone), is worthy of something called "Tomb of Horrors."

But how fast does the juggernaut move? Will PCs have time to get friends out of the hall? It's an interesting omission that Gygax doesn't explain exactly how fast the juggernaut moves, considering he goes into second by second movement for some earlier traps.

Bullgrit

 

[Joshua Randall]

Are we seeing that the Tomb *is* actually ruthlessly lethal?

Maybe not yet.

the stripping arch

Many players would feel that losing all their equipment is a fate worse than death, so I'd argue that this counts as lethal

We've seen some traps that can be lethal if a victim fails an arguably easy saving throw -- poison spike pit traps, etc.

Thing is, any individual saving throw might not be that difficult. But when you have to make a ton of saves over the course of an adventuring session -- well, it only takes one failure.

We haven't gotten to it yet, but when we do, I'm going to argue that the demilich himself is a near-certain TPK if the PCs stay to fight.

 

[FoxWander]

Huh?! I always took it that the Juggernaut rolls 10-60' EVERY turn if the DM rolls a 4. But I can see how it could be read to say that it rolls then goes back and pops out again if another 4 is rolled. That at least makes this a vaguely less deadly trap- anyone more than 60' from the 20'x20' room would be completely untouched.

I think my original interpretation is more fitting with the finality of the "no appeal" description.