D&D 5E Wish duplicating a spell - what level slot?

[Blue]

Quick rules question: Wish can be used to duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower without requirements like components. If it matters, what level slot is it considered cast with.

For instance, if it was used to duplicate Planar Binding, a 5th level spell. Would it the slot be undefined/the minimum, in which case it lasts 24 hours. Would it be 8th level (the maximum spell level known Wish can duplicate) in which case it lasts 180 days. Or is it based on the slot actually used for the Wish, so it would last for a year and a day?

EDIT: I made this a question thread instead of a normal one, so you can upvote and downvote for what you feel is correct or incorrect. Contribute even if you don't have more to say.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I would say you are casting the spell at it’s base level. Upcasting would run you into some of the pitfalls of Wish.

EDIT: I like what others are saying below better than my initial thought: the caster of the Wish can consider any spell cast as an 8th level upcast, if applicable. No penalty.

 

[TwoSix]

An upcast lower level spell IS the level of the slot for every game rule mechanic I can think of that references spell level. It should be irrelevant to wish whether you use it cast earthquake or an 8th level magic missile.

If anyone can think of exceptions, I'd be happy to change my mind, but I'm drawing a blank.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would think you could specify what level as part of your wish.

 

[Mort]

You can duplicate any spell 8th level and lower with Wish.

As such, when casting a spell lower than 8th level, you can decide what level you want it cast at - up to 8th level. So with magic missile you can duplicate it as a 1st level spell (3 missiles) up to an 8th level spell (10 missiles) - casters choice.

Why would you want to duplicate it at a lower level? Can't think of a good reason, but all sorts of situations come up in play!

 

[Dausuul]

Would it the slot be undefined/the minimum, in which case it lasts 24 hours. Would it be 8th level (the maximum spell level known Wish can duplicate) in which case it lasts 180 days. Or is it based on the slot actually used for the Wish, so it would last for a year and a day?

The answer depends on how you interpret "duplicate another spell."

If you read this to mean "You are still casting wish, but it has the effect of the other spell," then the duplicated effect includes the following text: "When you cast this spell using a spell slot of X level, it does Y." You are casting the spell using a spell slot of 9th level, so under this reading, it would be upcast to 9th. Planar binding would last a year and a day.

An alternative interpretation would be that wish is enabling you to cast the other spell without using a spell slot and without taking an action or expending components. Under this reading, the other spell is being cast without using a spell slot, so the upcast clause doesn't kick in. Planar binding lasts 24 hours.

For the sake of consistency (and because wish is plenty powerful already), I prefer the second interpretation. Generally speaking, when something in 5E lets you cast a spell in an unorthodox way, you cast it at the base spell level, and I'd rather have wish follow that principle. However, I think the first interpretation is more consistent with strict RAW.

(I don't think there's any reasonable reading in which the duplicated spell is upcast to 8th.)

 

[Dausuul]

You can duplicate any spell 8th level and lower with Wish.

As such, when casting a spell lower than 8th level, you can decide what level you want it cast at - up to 8th level. So with magic missile you can duplicate it as a 1st level spell (3 missiles) up to an 8th level spell (10 missiles) - casters choice.

Why would you want to duplicate it at a lower level? Can't think of a good reason, but all sorts of situations come up in play!

Edit: I was incorrect, spells do have their level increased when upcast. However, the rest of my argument stands.

Upcast spells get a bonus "when you cast them using a spell slot of X level." When you cast wish, the only spell slot you are using is 9th level. The duplicated spell might benefit from that spell slot, or it might not (this is open to interpretation). But nothing in wish allows you to create an 8th-level spell slot and plug it into the duplicated spell. It's either 9th or the base level.

 

[Mort]

Spells are not cast at different levels. Magic missile is a 1st-level spell, period. If you cast it using an 8th-level slot, it is still a 1st-level spell. It just gets a bonus from the spell slot that was used to cast it.

When you cast wish, the only spell slot you are using is 9th level. The duplicated spell might benefit from that spell slot, or it might not (this is open to interpretation). But nothing in wish allows you to create an 8th-level spell slot and plug it into the duplicated spell. It's either 9th or the base level.

That is not correct.

From Chapter 10 of the PHP (Spellcasting):

Casting a Spell at a Higher Level​

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
_____________________________________________________

Since Wish says you can duplicate any spell of up to 8th level, plain reading means exactly that (so the spell duplicated is not cast as a 9th level spell but up to an 8th level spell).

 

[TwoSix]

Casting a Spell at a Higher Level​

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

Classic natural language at work.

A "spell" really has two meanings; one is the construct that the caster prepares or knows, which has a fixed base level. The second is the particular instance of that spell created by casting, which has a level based on the spell slot expended.

So "the spell magic missile" can mean two things. It's the spell the caster has prepared, which is 1st level, but it's also any individual casting of that spell, which can be any level for which the caster has spell slots.

So basically, it's a complete tossup as to whether the "duplicate any other spell of 8th level or below" refers to the rules construct object that is prepared/known by the caster, or to an individual casting. I'd rule the latter, because it's wish and upscaled lower level spells are generally inferior anyway.

 

[jgsugden]

Ask your DM. If you are the DM, make a ruling that is fun. The rules are ambiguous enough to allow for different interpretations.