D&D 5E Wish & Simulacrum

[Shiroiken]

Hmm, but if you are an Illusionist you could "recast" the Simulacrum with Malleable Illusions to basically get new spell slots avoiding your first issue, or hard casting Simulacrum so it will have your 9th level spell slot.

Personally I hate the whole rule on the 33% chance of never casting Wish again. It's a 9th level spell, it should be able to do fantastic things and they already limit the number of spells you get by level compared to other editions.

I did find something from the Adventurer's League that states that you share the Simulacrum's fate if you cast Wish so if one of you is put "under Stress" then both of you are. However, that is not RAW and is designed to balance a game throughout the country in national play.

Personally I hate the whole rule on the 33% chance of never casting Wish again.

As do I. Prior editions handled it better by placing a cost on it, either 3E XP cost or AD&D aging. The way 5E focuses, I'd probably give it a component cost and remove the ability to gain money.

 

[OB1]

I haven't banned Simulacrum, but I do make it a 9th level spell (which does prevent the OP exploit).

But also, I split Wish into 2 pieces.

The basic use case, replicate 8th level spell portion can be learned and used the normal way.

The rest of the Wish spell is a bonus level 20 capstone spell that I give to all full caster classes, always counting as prepared but still using a 9th level slot. They can also use this version to cast any 9th level spell as one of it's effects. Essentially, this is like giving them a ring of three wishes at 20th due to the 33% chance of it not working again.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't think any spell should be banned from the game, just a reasonable balance. I'm not trying to break the game and create a clone army, even though there are ways you could. More so than anything, I guess trying to find a way to avoid the 33% chance of never being able to cast wish again.

What I do is rule that the 33% is just the chance in incur the ire of a cosmic force (as a result of blatantly messing around with reality). They have the power to prevent you from ever casting wish again, and you're not going to fight your way out of such an encounter, but they can be reasoned with and might allow this slide as long as you set right whatever your wish 'broke'.

 

[Todd Roybark]

My problem with simulacrum isn't the exploits. It is that using the spell purely as intended is unbelievably powerful. You double all but one of your spell slots. You get two spells per round, plus bonus actions and reactions. You get to concentrate on two things at once. And you get to do all this at 13th level, which is in the range of levels that you might actually reach in a typical campaign.

One could do this after 12 hours of casting time and lots and lots of snow.

So what you are describing is literally preparation for a major showdown being planned by the PC party. In official D&D Adventures, this is likely the for the capstone encounters, so in practice, the Wizard player that has patiently played to reach this power level gets to do this once or twice.

I’m not saying, the spell doesn't have room for abuse, but requires vast planning.

Frankly self duplication is probably the most straightforward use, the fun begins when the party tries to replace a a Monarch, a Gold Dragon, etc....and if the party can pull off something so audacious...then what a fun story that is!

 

[Maestrino]

My problem with simulacrum isn't the exploits. It is that using the spell purely as intended is unbelievably powerful. You double all but one of your spell slots. You get two spells per round, plus bonus actions and reactions. You get to concentrate on two things at once. And you get to do all this at 13th level, which is in the range of levels that you might actually reach in a typical campaign.

There are very few spells that I am moved to ban in 5E, and most of them are for gameplay or world-building reasons. Simulacrum is the only 5E spell that I consider too powerful to live.

I'm trying to figure out what makes simulacrum in this scenario worse than the party just going and finding a high-level NPC wizard and hiring them to come along and help with a particularly nasty situation, which doesn't even require a spell slot.

 

[jasper]

I treat simulacrum as another pc. I suggest other DMs do also.
edited and added. Let me clear up. In Adventure League, I treat as another pc in the party, so an avg party just became strong. I would not allow the OP post.

 

[Frozenstep]

One could do this after 12 hours of casting time and lots and lots of snow.

So what you are describing is literally preparation for a major showdown being planned by the PC party. In official D&D Adventures, this is likely the for the capstone encounters, so in practice, the Wizard player that has patiently played to reach this power level gets to do this once or twice.

I’m not saying, the spell doesn't have room for abuse, but requires vast planning.

Frankly self duplication is probably the most straightforward use, the fun begins when the party tries to replace a a Monarch, a Gold Dragon, etc....and if the party can pull off something so audacious...then what a fun story that is!

Requiring planning should mean an advantage, but the ability to straight up gain another PC is bonkers. Action economy is pretty strong stuff, and being able to double up on spells can lead to some insane combos.

The fact that it requires planning actually makes it both better and worse. It makes the party's power more swingy, and makes balancing encounters harder from the DM side. Not wanting a lame final battle, they design an encounter that is well-balanced and fun for what the party with their extra member is capable of...only for the simulacrum to die to a crit in the fight before and screw up everything. Or they don't and the boss dies to force cage + sickening radiance on turn 1.

Being able to use it replace monarchs or something is a lot more interesting, but that doesn't forgive what a wrench it throws into the balancing of any high level party with a wizard.

I'm trying to figure out what makes simulacrum in this scenario worse than the party just going and finding a high-level NPC wizard and hiring them to come along and help with a particularly nasty situation, which doesn't even require a spell slot.

The fact that the DM can easily shut down attempts to find help, or make finding help its own quest/challenge that requires someone with good social skills and maybe some thought on NPC motivations? And even then, they can control what kind of NPC wizard you get so that they aren't on the same level as the party and don't take the spotlight? World of difference.

 

[Umbran]

Requiring planning should mean an advantage, but the ability to straight up gain another PC is bonkers.

If a friend of yours who was a really good player came and wanted to play... you'd say no because they'd be adding another PC?

Because... all of you seem to be reacting with, "OMG - they get another party member, and that's impossible to work with!" as if none of you have ever added a player to a game! What's up with that?

Rebalance their encounters. Give out XP as if the group were one larger, but the Simulacrum doesn't actually get its share. Move on. What's the big deal?

 

[Frozenstep]

If a friend of yours who was a really good player came and wanted to play... you'd say no because they'd be adding another PC?

Because... all of you seem to be reacting with, "OMG - they get another party member, and that's impossible to work with!" as if none of you have ever added a player to a game! What's up with that?

Rebalance their encounters. Give out XP as if the group were one larger, but the Simulacrum doesn't actually get its share. Move on. What's the big deal?

You missed the point of that paragraph. This is a single player basically getting an ability so strong the DM has to rebalance their encounters if the player chooses it, almost on par with adding a new player. That doesn't strike you as a bit too much? It's way too powerful.

And you ignored the second paragraph. My last game, I actually reached the level where I could learn the spell on my wizard. And I talked with my DM and chose not to take it. Why? Because I knew that if I took it, my DM would have to balance encounters around it. But that would mean if it went down or I failed to obtain the resources to maintain it (very possible in the setting in that campaign), all I would have done is made every combat harder for my party.

Or my DM could have not balanced around it, and we could have experienced combats far easier than intended and get bored.

Can you not see why that's bad design?

 

[Fanaelialae]

You missed the point of that paragraph. This is a single player basically getting an ability so strong the DM has to rebalance their encounters if the player chooses it, almost on par with adding a new player. That doesn't strike you as a bit too much? It's way too powerful.

And you ignored the second paragraph. My last game, I actually reached the level where I could learn the spell on my wizard. And I talked with my DM and chose not to take it. Why? Because I knew that if I took it, my DM would have to balance encounters around it. But that would mean if it went down or I failed to obtain the resources to maintain it (very possible in the setting in that campaign), all I would have done is made every combat harder for my party.

Or my DM could have not balanced around it, and we could have experienced combats far easier than intended and get bored.

Can you not see why that's bad design?

I have a player who has used it and it's really not as great at it seems at first glance.

The simulacrum can't recover resources, and has half hit points. Over the course of an adventure, it is going to have a relatively marginal impact. Let's say that the adventure is a week long. The wizard hasn't doubled his spells. He's increased his capacity by 1/7th. And that's if the simulacrum actually survives, which is hardly a given with its HP.

The biggest impact is double spell casting in those rounds that it is used. Which is potent, but given how HP scale relative damage spells, by no means OP IME. If it were, dipping 2 levels of fighter (for action surge) would be a no brainier for a wizard.

Maybe at level 17+, when you can wish a new one into existence for no cost, it might be a little strong. But they still have to expend their 9th level spell for that day, which is a big opportunity cost. If you do it, you don't have Foresight or True Poly or any other 9th level spell for that day. Additionally, most things get a little OP at 17+, so it isn't something I stress about.