With the experience of multiple previous editions, why's Dexterity STILL an uberstat?

[dammitbiscuit]

It still determines:

AC
Init
Some attack rolls
Some powerful "checks" (ie Stealth, ie Surprise Rounds)
The most frequently mentioned Saving Throw, thus probably the most important one

Init could easily be Wisdom: perceive first, notice the most, and you'll be able to react first and best.

We saw in 4e some ok...ish justification for allowing Int to AC.

Here we are, in 5e, and there's still very little room or reason to dump Dex. Pretty much everyone will grab at least 12 in it after allocating their most important stats.

Even if thematically being clumsy would suit your character, giving up a couple points of Dex harms you more than giving up a couple points of any other stat. You can see they've put some effort into making Charisma a little more generally useful, but no effort has been put into making Dexterity less universally incredible.

...

On a completely unrelated note, I ADORE the simplified, uber-lethal new Coup de Grace - along with a lot of other things. But it bums me out that Dex remains so powerfully un-dumpable.

 

[dkyle]

Uber-stat indeed. If you're using a one-handed weapon, going DEX based vs STR based costs a single point of damage. Even with a two-hander, STR only gets you two points of damage, maybe reach, and a little flexibility with damage type. Meanwhile, DEX gives tremendous benefits.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

The AC situation looks worse than what I remember from 4e and 3.5 as well. With a minor Dex investment, light/medium apear to be in the same ballpark as heavy AC + shield. With an 18-20 Dex, you're better off, even without shield.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

In war and battle, throughout history, the slow and the clumsy have gotten the worst of it.

Well, along with the old, the children and the women. Basically, when the arrows or the bullets start flying, if you are not quick on your feet, you are screwed!

 

[dkyle]

In war and battle, throughout history, the slow and the clumsy have gotten the worst of it.

Well, along with the old, the children and the women. Basically, when the arrows or the bullets start flying, if you are not quick on your feet, you are screwed!

The problem isn't that DEX allows one to survive combat more effectively. That's to be expected. The problem is that STR has almost no benefit that can't be gotten by just maxing DEX instead. STR is a newb trap. With the current ruleset, I'd expect STR 8, max DEX Fighters in light armor to be the norm among those that understand the game.

 

[Psikus]

Here we are, in 5e, and there's still very little room or reason to dump Dex. Pretty much everyone will grab at least 12 in it after allocating their most important stats.

Even if thematically being clumsy would suit your character, giving up a couple points of Dex harms you more than giving up a couple points of any other stat.

Though I agree that Dex is likely the most useful ability, I do think there is a case for characters in medium or heavy armor to not prioritize it that much (or even use it as a dump stat). Consider the following:
- Medium/heavy armor halves/negates Dex modifiers to AC, not just bonuses. So having a Dex penalty is not really a factor (unlike other editions like 3.x).
- Caster classes can't afford Dex as a primary ability. A caster proficient with heavy armor (i.e. cleric) is probably better off using it, in terms of AC, rather than investing in Dex and light armor.
- Characters gain ability bonuses based on their race and class. A dwarven fighter will likely not gain any Dex bonus, which is an incentive to focus on Strength instead.

So I don't think Dex is a big deal, as long as you have the option to use medium/heavy armor. So, looking at the classes in the current playtest:
- Wizard: Wants a lot of Dex, but still has Int as primary
- Rogue: Dex primary
- Cleric: Can use either Str or Dex as secondary. Could conceivably ignore both, and rely on Wis-based spells (i.e. Radiant Lance) as main attacks.
- Fighter: Can use either Str or Dex as primary.

 

[Kinak]

Heh, I was so excited about finesse fighters actually working I wasn't too worried about the balance. Applying dex to damage on finesse weapons is probably too much, though.

You can see it a bit in the monster designs too. There's no reason for the kobolds in the adventure to use spears. They should stick with their daggers and do 50% more damage.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[nightwyrm]

dex is an uberstat irl.

 

[dkyle]

Though I agree that Dex is likely the most useful ability, I do think there is a case for characters in medium or heavy armor to not prioritize it that much (or even use it as a dump stat). Consider the following:
- Medium/heavy armor halves/negates Dex modifiers to AC, not just bonuses. So having a Dex penalty is not really a factor (unlike other editions like 3.x).

A character should only wear medium or heavy armor if they can't afford a high DEX for some other reason. It would be foolish to decide, a priori, to wear medium/heavy armor, then dump DEX because of it.

- Characters gain ability bonuses based on their race and class. A dwarven fighter will likely not gain any Dex bonus, which is an incentive to focus on Strength instead.

If race and class bonuses exist, they appear to be quite small.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

So, looking at the classes in the current playtest:
- Wizard: Wants a lot of Dex, but still has Int as primary
- Rogue: Dex primary
- Cleric: Can use either Str or Dex as secondary. Could conceivably ignore both, and rely on Wis-based spells (i.e. Radiant Lance) as main attacks.
- Fighter: Can use either Str or Dex as primary.

Wizard: Can get respectable AC with 14 dex. Certain spells, or Background, Race, or Theme can easily make him a strong member of a stealthy "surprise party".

Cleric: With 16 dex, has same AC as heavy armor user, but without the speed penalty. Use finesse weapons no prob. If using the array, Wis will be either 14 or 15, which is perfectly sufficient for casting buffs and heals. If he was using Str instead of Dex, relative to this setup he'd have +1 damage, lower move speed, lower init, poorer odds at running with a "surprise party" group of PCs.

Fighter: +1 damage if using Str, +lots to everything he cares about if using Dex.

Rogue: Can reach the glory and splendor of a 20 Dex score at character creation. Will have similar or better AC to a heavy armor user without trying, life is pretty wonderful all around.