Wizard Feats Question

[Berk]

That's not a valid comparison.

The wizard, while hasted, can get off two MMk spells and move.

The sorcerer can get off one MMk spell and move, or a MMk spell and a normal spell and not move.

Unhasted, the wizard can cast a MMk spell and move; the sorcerer can cast a MMk spell and not move.

-Hyp.

Sor's cast metamagicked spells as full round actions, which means by definition that they can't move more then 5'. So if hasted they can't move more then 5' no matter what if they are casting a metamagicked spell. Wizards can cast 2 metamagicked spells in a round and still move their normal movement while hasted. Sor's can only cast one and still not move. Actually wiz's can cast 3 while hasted and still move their normal movement rate because of quicken spell. 3 and a move sounds a lot better then 1 and no move.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sor's cast metamagicked spells as full round actions, which means by definition that they can't move more then 5'. So if hasted they can't move more then 5' no matter what if they are casting a metamagicked spell.

A hasted fighter can make a full attack (full round action), and then move his speed with his extra partial action.

A hasted cleric can load his heavy crossbow (full round action), and then move his speed with his extra partial action.

A hasted sorcerer can cast a metamagicked spell (full round action), and then move his speed with his extra partial action.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Check out Badaxes.com Heroes of high favor for ideas with halforc bbn/wizzies...

Otherwise, what about barbarian clerics ?

Or paladin spellsingers....

 

[Berk]

A hasted fighter can make a full attack (full round action), and then move his speed with his extra partial action.

A hasted cleric can load his heavy crossbow (full round action), and then move his speed with his extra partial action.

A hasted sorcerer can cast a metamagicked spell (full round action), and then move his speed with his extra partial action.

-Hyp.

Went over the rules in the PHB and T&B.

The PHB (if you don't use guidebooks and rules supplements) makes it clear that you can't take any other action, except the 5-foot step, while casting a spell with a casting time of a full round.

In the T&B it says you can take your partial before or after the spell is complete, but since you don't complete the spell until your next turn in the following round you can only take the partial before you begin casting the spell with the full round casting time.

Either way, metamagick feats are far better for wizards just because of that single drawback, and we won't even begin debating on how it would work with spells with a full round casting time if you are confused by the aim a spell section and casting a spell sections in the PHB.

Shoot, shoot, shoot move. Shoot, move, shoot shoot. Move, shoot, shoot shoot. Shoot, shoot, move shoot.

Move then shoot. Shoot then shoot. Or just shoot.

Which one seems better to you?

 

[LuYangShih]

A Rage Mage could be fun, if you go with the Half-Orc Barbarian/Wizard combination.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Went over the rules in the PHB and T&B.

But you're making a common mistake.

There is a big, big difference between a spell with a "one full round" casting time, like Summon Monster II - and which are the spells referred to in the section in Tome and Blood on the interaction between Haste and casting time, and in the PHB - and a spell that requires a full-round action to cast.

A MMk spell cast by a sorcerer - say, an Empowered Magic Missile - still goes off on his action. He is no more vulnerable to disruption than a wizard casting the same spell, because his casting does not extend across everyone else's action like Summon Monster II would. It takes as long to cast Empowered Magic Missile as it does to load a Heavy Crossbow... but casting Summon Monster II is different.

For the same reason, a sorcerer casting a MMk spell is unconcerned by the choose-your-parameters-at-start-of-casting restriction... because either a/ nobody has a chance to do anything before you finish your spell, or b/ someone's readied action triggers... which would have happened even if you were casting a non-MMk spell.

If you don't see the difference between full round action and Casting Time: one full round, then yes, Sorcerers' metamagic is seriously hamstrung. But that's not how it works.

-Hyp.

 

[Wippit Guud]

From SRD, Action:

Cast a spell(full-round) [Full][AoO: Yes]

Description: The spell will take effect just before the caster's action in the next round.

A combatant can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after casting such a spell, but cannot otherwise move.

A combatant may attempt to cast a spell while on the defensive. Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does require a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level). Failure means that the combatant loses the spell.

So yes, it's casting on the round, and not subject to interference during casting. But, full round action spells don't take effect until the beginning of the caster's next initiative. Hurts for sorcerers.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Further clarification...

From SRD, casting spells overview

A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of the character's turn in the round after the character began casting the spell. The character then acts normally after the spell is completed.

"Full round action" and "one full round" are the same thing.

 

[Li Shenron]

But you're making a common mistake.

There is a big, big difference between a spell with a "one full round" casting time, like Summon Monster II - and which are the spells referred to in the section in Tome and Blood on the interaction between Haste and casting time, and in the PHB - and a spell that requires a full-round action to cast.

A MMk spell cast by a sorcerer - say, an Empowered Magic Missile - still goes off on his action. He is no more vulnerable to disruption than a wizard casting the same spell, because his casting does not extend across everyone else's action like Summon Monster II would. It takes as long to cast Empowered Magic Missile as it does to load a Heavy Crossbow... but casting Summon Monster II is different.

For the same reason, a sorcerer casting a MMk spell is unconcerned by the choose-your-parameters-at-start-of-casting restriction... because either a/ nobody has a chance to do anything before you finish your spell, or b/ someone's readied action triggers... which would have happened even if you were casting a non-MMk spell.

If you don't see the difference between full round action and Casting Time: one full round, then yes, Sorcerers' metamagic is seriously hamstrung. But that's not how it works.

-Hyp.

So, if you cast a Summon Monster spell, you are considered being casting the spell (and therefore required a successful Concentration check if hit in the meantime) until your next turn - when the spell takes effect - while instead spontaneously casting a metamagicked spell just completes at the end of your turn?

It sounds strange that the 2 cases are so different.

Casting Time

The character can cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action as a standard action, just like making an attack.

A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of the character's turn in the round after the character began casting the spell. The character then acts normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before the character's turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, the character is casting a spell as a full-round action).

The character must make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, etc.) when the character begins casting.

I have never been 100% sure of the meaning of the rule above, particularly with the sentence The character then acts normally after the spell is completed, which seems to hint that he does NOT act normally while he is still casting, and always made me think he can be disrupted (if he can be counterspelled is another matter ).

Anyway, IIRC there is a FAQ or Sage response that stated you can use the partial action granted by Haste (the good'ol one ) to complete casting a full-round spell, which then would have avoided you the risk of being disrupted.

I think this is an issue whose 3.5e clarification I will pray for.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From SRD, casting spells overview...

"Full round action" and "one full round" are the same thing.

Still not so.

Casting a spell with a casting time of One Full Round requires the full round action.

Making a Circle Kick attack requires the Full Attack Action.

All St Bernards require dog licenses.

This does not mean that all spells that take a full round action have a casting time of One Full Round. It does not mean that all attacks that use the Full Attack Action are Circle Kicks. And it does not mean that anything with a dog license is a St Bernard.

-Hyp.