Wizard questions

[eamon]

As far as I know, the 2 free spells that Wizards get each level is a part of their spellcasting progression, and is included in "+1 level of existing spellcasting class."

This is my interpretation too. What else would it be, if not part of their spellcasting progression? It's also extremely lame (mostly causes extra trips to somehow acquire the necessary scrolls) and hardly a balance issue to deny it, so I would certainly allow it (esp compared to how all other casting classes do get their spells). The wizard loses "other bonuses" like his bonus feats. Gaining spells each level is no separate class feature, it's just part of how a wizard casts spells.

 

[irdeggman]

This is my interpretation too. What else would it be, if not part of their spellcasting progression? It's also extremely lame (mostly causes extra trips to somehow acquire the necessary scrolls) and hardly a balance issue to deny it, so I would certainly allow it (esp compared to how all other casting classes do get their spells). The wizard loses "other bonuses" like his bonus feats. Gaining spells each level is no separate class feature, it's just part of how a wizard casts spells.

The way its written?

Each Prestige Class must be looked up on a case basis since the exact text may vary.

The most common text however is:

"At each X level the (PCl) gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an X casting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as {insert list of examples})."

Under the wizard class features description it says under the spellbooks entry (a class feature not shared by all other arcane casting clases):

"At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook."

This is to me clearly a case where it does not meet the text for "+1 existing caster level" (at least usually). Since it is not "new spells per day" or "spells known, if applicable" {which technically only applies to spontaneous casters who gain a specified number of spells known at each level}. A wizard has no limit to the number of spells known and so this is a not a function of wizard level (only the spell levels that can be cast).

The tables for wizard spellcasting progression has no entry for spells known (unlike sorcerer or bard) - this is because it is not part of their progression - they have no limit and can at any time research any spells they want to add (within DM restrictions of course) while spontaneous casters can never exceed teh maximum number of spells known (certain feats add to this limit though).

 

[Falling Icicle]

Irdeggman, all of the spells that a Wizard adds to his spellbooks are "known" to him. This does not function the same way as a spell known to a spontaneous caster, obviously, but they are "known" nonetheless.

From the SRD (emphasis mine),

SPELL MASTERY [SPECIAL]
Prerequisite: Wizard level 1st.

Benefit: Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook.

Normal: Without this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic.

If what you suggest about Wizards not actually knowing any spells is true, then they wouldn't even be able to qualify for Spell Mastery! Also note that the Extra Spell feat gives the character an extra spell known, and wizards can take that feat as well.

 

[irdeggman]

Irdeggman, all of the spells that a Wizard adds to his spellbooks are "known" to him. This does not function the same way as a spell known to a spontaneous caster, obviously, but they are "known" nonetheless.

From the SRD (emphasis mine),



If what you suggest about Wizards not actually knowing any spells is true, then they wouldn't even be able to qualify for Spell Mastery! Also note that the Extra Spell feat gives the character an extra spell known, and wizards can take that feat as well.

I did not say that wizards "not actually knowing spells" or any such thing. I said:

This is to me clearly a case where it does not meet the text for "+1 existing caster level" (at least usually). Since it is not "new spells per day" or "spells known, if applicable" {which technically only applies to spontaneous casters who gain a specified number of spells known at each level}. A wizard has no limit to the number of spells known and so this is a not a function of wizard level (only the spell levels that can be cast).

The tables for wizard spellcasting progression has no entry for spells known (unlike sorcerer or bard) - this is because it is not part of their progression - they have no limit and can at any time research any spells they want to add (within DM restrictions of course) while spontaneous casters can never exceed the maximum number of spells known (certain feats add to this limit though).

When a wizard levels up he can learn any spell (from the applicable list) - this is a class feature that has nothing to do with number of spells cast per day or known.

So what you are saying is that the "if applicable" means absolutely nothing. Something I find hard to believe that WotC has consistently added in text that has no specific meaning in almost all Prestige Class entries with "+1 caster level" or the like.

Is the +2 spells per wizard level a class feature or a spellcasting progression one? When a wizard/Pr Cl gains a Pr Cl level with a +1 caster level is he now a wizard ( X+1)/Pr Cl Y or a wizard X/Pr Cl (Y +1)?

It has nothing to do with spell progression since the limit to the number of spells a wizard can know in pretty much unlimited. There are several levels when a wizard gains no new spell levels so this means absolutely nothing really.

 

[Falling Icicle]

When a wizard levels up he can learn any spell (from the applicable list) - this is a class feature that has nothing to do with number of spells cast per day or known.

So what you are saying is that the "if applicable" means absolutely nothing. Something I find hard to believe that WotC has consistently added in text that has no specific meaning in almost all Prestige Class entries with "+1 caster level" or the like.

Is the +2 spells per wizard level a class feature or a spellcasting progression one? When a wizard/Pr Cl gains a Pr Cl level with a +1 caster level is he now a wizard ( X+1)/Pr Cl Y or a wizard X/Pr Cl (Y +1)?

It has nothing to do with spell progression since the limit to the number of spells a wizard can know in pretty much unlimited. There are several levels when a wizard gains no new spell levels so this means absolutely nothing really.

I'm not saying that at all. Just because wizards don't have a set limit on how many spells they know doesn't mean that it is inapplicable to them. When a wizard gains a new level, regardless of whether he gets a new level of spells, he gets 2 free spells known. How then is "and spells, known, if applicable" not applicable to him? Just because he doesn't have a chart with a set number of spells known at each level doesn't mean that it is inapplicable to him. He gets spells known at each and every level. Yes, he can learn other spells beyond this, but that is optional and costs time and money.

There is still some question, I admit, of whether it is a class feature or a part of their spellcasting progression. Unfortunately, the book really isn't clear on this. I prefer to do what I believe is the fairest and most common sense solution - give it to them. After all, these spells are part of a wizard's ongoing research and study. They are part of his development of magical skills. I can't imagine that a wizard would suddenly stop researching and studying simply because he has gained a prestige class.

I also think that wizards have enough disadvantages already. They have the lowest number of spells per day among the pure caster classes, and the spellbook is a huge shackle and money sink. The two free spells a wizard gets is pretty much the only thing that actually lets them have some money and time leftover to do other things. For a class that will end up spending a large portion of his wealth just to get access to his primary class feature, the 2 free spells known is a godsend. And look at clerics and druids, which get acess to their entire, not inconsiderable list of spells automatically and for free. Wizards have to spend lots of time and money to gain each and every spell that they can learn, and that's after finding or researching the spell, which often isn't easy. And they have to haul them around in expensive and vulnerable books just to make use of them. Give them a break. They need it.

 

[satori01]

I would say contact the Sage regarding whether taking a PrC should deny a Wizard from getting their 2 spells per level.

As was stated this was addressed in the early days of 3.0 by Monte Cook who said when he created PrC classes with + 1 spell casting levels he intended for that to include the 2 free spells per level. To increase spell casting level w/o allowing for extra spells is like letting a Fighter increase their BAB w/o getting the the appropriate Iterative attack.

Not to be harsh, and this is not meant to be an ad hominum attack, but rulings like that seem to miss the forest for the trees. What is the net additive effect to the game other than requiring the DM to make quite sure he is supplying the Wizard player with scrolls and to scribe into the spellbook when the Wizard gets a new spell level, and open the door for a player to be quite upset at say getting 4th level spells while in the midst of an extended foray and not be able to actually prepare any?

What (if anything) does that interpretation add to a game?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, not that I trust CustServ, they did in fact tell me once that the two bonus spells are part and parcel of the spellcasting advancement in a prestige class.

 

[cthulhu_duck]

4. When adding levels of a prestige class that grants "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" (archmage, for example) a wizard does not pick up two more spells.

No, and the FAQ answer is in the 3.0 FAQ:

I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels.
They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard /loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.

 

[irdeggman]

No, and the FAQ answer is in the 3.0 FAQ:

I can personally disagree with this ruling but it is still "official" and the closest thing to a 3.5 one as we've got so go with it as the correct interpretation.

 

[Thanael]

4. When adding levels of a prestige class that grants "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" (archmage, for example) a wizard does not pick up two more spells. A sorcerer, however, would gain additional spells known.

#4 is currently causing me the most grief, since some presitge classes indicate that a wizards gets 3 additional spells known per level.

You're not thinking that when a prestige class says that it grants 3 new spells per level, that you need to add them to the 2 that you get normally, thus resulting in 5 new spells, or do you?

In that case i would rule that the 3 new spells replace the 2 new spells, i.e. you ge t3 when it is specifically stated, else you get 2.