Wizard retraining problem

[the Jester]

Wait- are you wanting to retrain a 5th level power for a 1st level power?

Can you do that?

 

[kerbarian]

Wait- are you wanting to retrain a 5th level power for a 1st level power?

Can you do that?

Sure. The text from the PHB is "You can replace a power with another power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter attack power, daily attack power, or utility power), of the same level or lower, and from the same class".

As far as I can tell, though, if you retrain a 5th-level power for a 1st, you can't retrain it back again -- you've permanently downgraded the slot.

 

[radja]

To be quite honest, I'd pitch 1C before 1A if 1A happens to be Sleep... unless they want the possibility of Flaming Sphere AND Sleep...

if you have enough dailies, wizards can already do this with their spellbook class feature. just pick the dailies you want to use for the day from the dailies you know.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sure. The text from the PHB is "You can replace a power with another power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter attack power, daily attack power, or utility power), of the same level or lower, and from the same class".

As far as I can tell, though, if you retrain a 5th-level power for a 1st, you can't retrain it back again -- you've permanently downgraded the slot.

Sure you can... just not immediately.

When you hit level 15, use your level 15 to trade it for your 15 power.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Does picking up Extended Spellbook and moving things around using it help?

So drop 1A from level 1, get extended spellbook and put it as your 3rd level 5 option.
You would probably still have to go without 5C for a level to get it up to level 9 but you'll have 1A the whole time.

Once you're happy you can drop extended spellbook and dump 1 attack spell of each level.

 

[MarkB]

Say a wizard is just about to level to 9th, and his current daily spells are:

Level 1: 1A, 1B
Level 5: 5A, 5B

After leveling, he wants to end up with:

Level 1: 1B, 1C
Level 5: 5A, 1A
Level 9: 9A, 5B

That would require two retrainings (5B -> 1A and 1A -> 1C), so it doesn't work. That's fine; it seems reasonable that it could take a couple levels of retraining to accomplish the shuffling. The problem, though, is that I don't see any way to get to the desired list of spells without losing access to 1A for a level.

For example, the wizard could retrain 1A -> 1C at 8th level, then retrain 5B -> 1A at 9th, but he'd spend all of 8th level without access to 1A.

No, it looks like there's no way around it. The only way to actually move 1A from the 1st level slot to the 5th level slot is to subtract it from the former with one retrain, then add it to the latter with another.

EDIT: Expanded Spellbook does help, though you'd have to wait until level 10 to take it, as retraining a feat for it just exacerbates the problem.

Is there any way to do this that I'm missing? (I'm thinking about this in the context of LFR, so asking for a DM exception isn't an option).

Just as a general point of note, LFR no longer independently tracks individual PCs in any meaningful manner, so unless you regularly play alongside others who would notice the mechanics of what you've done and feel motivated to lodge a formal complaint as a result, the decision on whether it'd be ethical to just go ahead and apply the equivalent of two retrainings at once is purely between you, your conscience and your handwritten log sheets.

 

[spayne]

Interesting... can you use that without actually changing a class feature, just to retrain more powers and/or feats?

I could see it going either way, so it would come down to how this has been ruled in the past.

Retraining the Spellbook feature in order to choose different free rituals should count for the feature retrain. The Wizard may even be able to retrain the Spellbook feature and re-choose all of his spells in it, since that feature is what allows the extra powers to be chosen.

 

[Regicide]

Where is this idea of "slots" that is causing all the problems coming from? Just pick 1C and 9A as the powers you get at 9th.

 

[MarkB]

Where is this idea of "slots" that is causing all the problems coming from? Just pick 1C and 9A as the powers you get at 9th.

Wizards' daily and utility spells are divided by leveled slots, and they can't freely choose between them. A wizard who chooses 9A and 1C as his 9th-level daily spells must choose to memorise one or the other of those spells as his 9th-level daily power for the day; he can never have both 9A and 1C memorised at the same time.

Hmm, at least that's how I thought it worked. Now that I actually come to look it up, I can't find any explicit rules, updates or clarifications to confirm it.

 

[kerbarian]

EDIT: Expanded Spellbook does help, though you'd have to wait until level 10 to take it, as retraining a feat for it just exacerbates the problem.

Yeah, that would work. At level 9, retrain 5B -> 5C for:

Level 1: 1A, 1B
Level 5: 5A, 5C
Level 9: 9A, 5B

Then at level 10, take expanded spellbook and retrain 1A -> 1C for:

Level 1: 1B, 1C, 1D
Level 5: 5A, 5C, 1A
Level 9: 9A, 5B, 9B

At level 11, drop expanded spellbook and get to the target of:

Level 1: 1B, 1C
Level 5: 5A, 1A
Level 9: 9A, 5B

It takes until 10th to get the desired spells, and it means losing out on a feat for a level, but it solves the problem. Level 10 feat choices often get retrained at 11th anyway, since they're generally your last-choice heroic feat that can be swapped for a first-choice paragon feat.