Wizard retraining problem

[kerbarian]

Say a wizard is just about to level to 9th, and his current daily spells are:

Level 1: 1A, 1B
Level 5: 5A, 5B

After leveling, he wants to end up with:

Level 1: 1B, 1C
Level 5: 5A, 1A
Level 9: 9A, 5B

That would require two retrainings (5B -> 1A and 1A -> 1C), so it doesn't work. That's fine; it seems reasonable that it could take a couple levels of retraining to accomplish the shuffling. The problem, though, is that I don't see any way to get to the desired list of spells without losing access to 1A for a level.

For example, the wizard could retrain 1A -> 1C at 8th level, then retrain 5B -> 1A at 9th, but he'd spend all of 8th level without access to 1A.

Is there any way to do this that I'm missing? (I'm thinking about this in the context of LFR, so asking for a DM exception isn't an option).

 

[DracoSuave]

You're pretty much right on the money.

Need to use two levels to do it.

Am I right in assuming 1A is Sleep?

 

[RangerWickett]

Could he just have 1A at both 1st and 5th for one level, then retrain the 1st level 1A into 1C?

And what about when a wizard takes a power swap feat and exchanges a daily spell for a non-wizard daily power. Does he keep his other spare wizard spell and keep the option to swap them?

 

[kerbarian]

Am I right in assuming 1A is Sleep?

How did you guess?

Actually, for the build I'm thinking of, Sleep wouldn't be the default spell for a slot (not an orb wizard), but it's definitely a nice one to keep as an option.

The goal behind all the shuffling is to keep a damage option and a control option for each daily. 5A and 5B are Stinking Cloud and Visions of Avarice, with the idea that at 9th, Visions of Avarice can move up to a 9th-level slot so they'd be available as a combo together, while Sleep would move up to the level 5 control slot.

 

[KarinsDad]

Could he just have 1A at both 1st and 5th for one level, then retrain the 1st level 1A into 1C?

Opp, had to correct this. The answer is no:

"At most levels, you gain access to a new power. You can take each power only once (you can’t choose the same power multiple times)."

And what about when a wizard takes a power swap feat and exchanges a daily spell for a non-wizard daily power. Does he keep his other spare wizard spell and keep the option to swap them?

I don't think so. It is not an explicit rule, but it is implied from the following rule:

"Each time you gain a level that lets you select a daily spell or a utility spell, choose two different daily spells or utility spells of that level to add to your book."

When he swaps out the daily or utility spell, he no longer has a selection of a daily or utility spell. He has a selection of a non-Wizard power.

Note: I suspect that Character Builder will not allow it though.

Even if he could do it, the problem here becomes, how does he swap between the Wizard spell and the non-Wizard power each day?

The rule "After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level." only allows him to swap spells after an extended rest. It does not allow him to swap non-spells.

 

[DracoSuave]

How did you guess?

Actually, for the build I'm thinking of, Sleep wouldn't be the default spell for a slot (not an orb wizard), but it's definitely a nice one to keep as an option.

The goal behind all the shuffling is to keep a damage option and a control option for each daily. 5A and 5B are Stinking Cloud and Visions of Avarice, with the idea that at 9th, Visions of Avarice can move up to a 9th-level slot so they'd be available as a combo together, while Sleep would move up to the level 5 control slot.

Well it was either Sleep or Flaming Sphere.

Besides, some (many) control wizards have the spell Sleep at level 30.

 

[Dan'L]

Say a wizard is just about to level to 9th, and his current daily spells are:

Level 1: 1A, 1B
Level 5: 5A, 5B

After leveling, he wants to end up with:

Level 1: 1B, 1C
Level 5: 5A, 1A
Level 9: 9A, 5B

How did you guess?
The goal behind all the shuffling is to keep a damage option and a control option for each daily. 5A and 5B are Stinking Cloud and Visions of Avarice, with the idea that at 9th, Visions of Avarice can move up to a 9th-level slot so they'd be available as a combo together, while Sleep would move up to the level 5 control slot.

Well, if 1A and 1C are equally useful as control slot options, the one-level retrain solution would be:

Level 1: 1A, 1B
Level 5: 5A, 1C
Level 9: 9A, 5B

-Dan'L

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, if 1A and 1C are equally useful as control slot options, the one-level retrain solution would be:

Level 1: 1A, 1B
Level 5: 5A, 1C
Level 9: 9A, 5B

-Dan'L

To be quite honest, I'd pitch 1C before 1A if 1A happens to be Sleep... unless they want the possibility of Flaming Sphere AND Sleep...

 

[spayne]

The wizard can use his one-time class feature retrain in order to retrain both powers.

 

[kerbarian]

The wizard can use his one-time class feature retrain in order to retrain both powers.

Interesting... can you use that without actually changing a class feature, just to retrain more powers and/or feats?

I could see it going either way, so it would come down to how this has been ruled in the past.