Wizard Sleep CSR Ruling

[evilbob]

JDon't forget that pretty much all the save-ends powers are bursts. It's not just a -15(or better) to t one target, all the other enemies, his minions or normal monsters, are pretty much screwed by the penalties from items/feats alone.

The orb power only works on 1 enemy.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Also would be interesting to see what your to hit is with your spells. I can figure the +12 for level +6 item +9 stat for a +27 but anything else on that?

Just wondering because at your level the solos you would be fighting should have a 40 or higher will out of the box. Heck just give one of them a +6 amulet of protection and without anything more than that +27 you would need to roll a 19 or 20 to even hit.

I usually open with a daily, so I tend to miss out on a bunch of bonuses such as power and CA.
I'll happily flank, wait for a buff, etc. if I have to, though.
I do have +1 from hellfire blood for prismatic spray, and +4 to both my spells if I AP before casting anything (battle mage).
Also, my enh bonus is only +5 (for now).

Oh, and my hitroll is about as high as they can get.
Monsters get +1 to all defenses per level because (among other things)they don't get enhancement bonuses.
If the DM is being a tool and I require a 19 to hit, nobody else is going to hit, either.

 

[Ahglock]

Realistically, you're looking at -2 from spell focus (paragon tier feat) and -1/-2/-3 (levels 7, 17, 27 respectively) from Phrenic Crown. Ultimately that means heroic tier will only have a constant -1 for 7+, paragon will only have -3 initially then later -4, and way way WAY deep into epic tier you'll see -5.

I disregarded the sword because the WST PP is hard to argue as a great choice of Paragon Path for an orb wizard; Divine Oracle is absolutely insane by comparison, and is arguably one of if not the best choice. WST at most will get you some minuses to will saves with that sword and there's really not a ton else it lends to an orb wiz. Also, a -9 is still saveable, it just requires a 19 or 20 to save assuming zero bonuses to saving throws. WST is just bad compared to Divine Oracle, which can practically guarantee you're either at or very close to the top of the initiative and can't be surprised, and it will make sure your will attacks land with incredible frequency by letting you roll twice on the attack rolls. And I haven't even touched the usefulness of the powers... if a player really takes WST to get those potential few extra points off of saves as an orb-focused Wizard, you should probably sigh in relief as a DM. (Of course, the -9 goes great with Legion's Hold, but basing your PP around one daily you get 18 levels later is silly. Particularly because that -9 drops to -2 if you don't have your gear readily accessible or a similar problem, and the build doesn't work if your DM doesn't let you have all of those items at once.)

I could care less if he's is an orb wizard or something else. Its the -5 to -9 all the time I find absurd. Level 8 a -5 to all will saves, -4 to all saves, level 18 -7 to will saves, -5 to all saves, level 28 -9 to will saves, -6 to all saves. Yeah you can't perma shut down the solos, but you can usually perma shut down all the regulars and frequently perma shut down elites.

You cast one spell maybe two and while the DM tries to roll a 17+ on each mob the party slaughters the opposition. This kind of stacking is just as bad as the 3e save or die problems.

 

[Mistwell]

The stat build is easy to pull off and still have a very solid character. See my example below.

It'd be a feat; having to point-buy 18 WIS with an Eladrin would kill any chance of having the right stats to do the trick properly. The cost of the paragon path is definitely too high though, I agree. HOWEVER, as shown before there is an orb item that lets you make the save auto-fail, and technically that's the only item bonus you need to absolutely guarantee the unconscious effect once Sleep lands.

Could you explain that one to me? Also, that item is really just to enable making a saving throw "unsavable" earlier, it's not actually necessary for the build.

Again, see example lv1 WIS below for the stat spread of a solid Wiz that can also pull this combo off.

The sacrifices really aren't that great. You can technically pull the effect off with zero item enhancements, they only help ensure it works. Probably the only key item would be the Orb of Karmic Resonance which will ensure the target fails the first saving throw. As far as making the attack land... well, getting a bunch of to hit bonuses is easy, just see the party leader Powers like Warlord's Favor, a level 1 encounter ability (and we're talking about doing this trick late paragon with item help or lv28+ without...), can add a big chunk to attack bonuses, on top of tactical presence and combat advantage, wand implement bonus if you have the feat for two implements, AND elven accuracy if all of that fails... it's really not too tough to make the to hit land.

Here's the example build I kept mentioning that makes for a very solid orb wizard that also has zero problems utilizing this trick without making any sacrifices:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast DDI Character Builder ======
HAZROR, level 1
Elf, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 13 Fort: 10 Reflex: 13 Will: 16
HP: 20 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Nature, Insight, History.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Improved Initiative

POWERS
1, At-Will: Thunderwave
1, At-Will: Ray of Frost
1, Encounter: Icy Terrain
1, Daily: Sleep
Spellbook: Flaming Sphere

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Arcane Implement, Orb, Dagger, Longbow, Arrows (60), Alchemical reagents (Arcana) (20), Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language, Animal Messenger, Rare Herbs (Nature) (10)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast DDI Character Builder ======

Certainly needs Toughness and Armor Proficiency (Leather), but it makes for a very solid build. Elf race enables a lot of mobility w/7 square movement, and the ability to shift through difficult terrain is definitely useful for avoiding opportunity attacks as a wiz that you'd otherwise be stuck taking. Elven accuracy helps a lot for ensuring those important control effects hit. +2 perception and +2 nature go great with the stats you'll have; hell, with such high WIS, you may as well take Skill Training (Perception) and if you added skill focus onto that you could have 25 passive perception at level 2 for overkill purposes... Basically the point I'm making is Elf is a GREAT race for an orb wizard, though it might not seem like it at first glance. He has enough stat-wise to qualify for any feats you'd want (except I guess Solid Sound); that +2 dex really pulls through in that department, enabling arcane reach, evasion, etc while still having enough stats for Spell Focus. The truly patient could even go 15 DEX 11 CHA and hold off on spell focus until epic tier if they wanted a DEX 17 feat like Seize the Moment or Defensive Advantage, but I didn't want to wait an extra 10 levels with that character just for access to a feat or two. Basically, the stat spread isn't a problem.

Stating out a first level character is useless for this thought experiment. It needs to be a paragon tier character to even begin to get to the point of this part of the thread. All you did was make a normal orb wizard. Sure, normal orb wizards are fine (though yours will not live long with a 10 Con and no armor I suspect).

Go ahead, make the higher level wizard we are all talking about. I suspect you will rapidly see just how much is sacrificed to actually do it, and that the odds of living to that point were low to begin with.

 

[Mistwell]

Um, my racial power is an encounter, not a daily. My class power is an encounter as well. Those are available every single fight, and many times I don't even need to use the racial power (only if I miss). And if I only use my class power if they first fail the save against the slow. If they make it, then I use the orb save penalty on a different power.

A solo or elite seems like a pretty good time to bust out a daily spell to me. And using a daily item power to give my daily spell significantly better chance of working seems like a good investment.





In the early leves (1-4) the character felt weak, but since lvl 5+ he's just been getting better and better. His racial power and feats work just fine in regular encounters, making sure a power lands when I need it.

He's multiclassed into ranger, has a passive 28 percption at lvl 8, and with Hunter's quary and the Brutal Accuracy feat he does some impressive damage at least once per combat (after I quarry someone I have that round and the next round to miss, reroll, and add 1d6+5 if I hit on the reroll).

He can thunderwave targets 5 squares on a hit, and I have a +2 Thunderawave staff as my main implement now (the orb of mental dominion is pretty much for Sleep for Phantasmal Assailant now). His Cloud of Daggers does 1d6+6 and another 5 damage on on your turn (even if I miss). Not to shabby.

He just took a feat to be trained in Stealth and has a +13 stealth now, which should be good for the occasional +2 combat advantage or skill challenge.

He's not your typical wizard, and took me awhile to get the hang of playing him. But he's pretty effective outside of a solo fight.

More importantly, he's fun and fairly unique.

I'm afraid you are a few messages behind. We went through each item specifically. You were quoting my earlier general post. I think I already addressed most of the issues you just raised.

 

[Mistwell]

Ok, I have to jump into this thread now.
I'm playing a level 25 wizard, and I did not build for saving throw lock.

Though we started the game at level 17, I made sure my character was one I would play from level 1, so I went with a standard build.
Tiefling Pyro ... wizard / battle mage / demigod
Starting Stats (lv1): str 8 con 13 dex 10 int 20 wis 13 cha 12
Current Stats (lv25): str 10 con 15 dex 12 int 29 wis 22 cha 14

I have spell focus 'cos it's a win (read: all wizards should get it).
I have the level 17 phrenic crown.
I took second implement to get mastery with orb.
That's already a -10 save penalty.

Wis 13 gets 7 increases by level 25, so that is Wis 20, not 22, for a total of 5. Level 17 Phrenic crown is a 2. Spell focus is a 2. Total of -9 to one save per encounter, and you still had to hit, and you had to get past the first "slow" save. Sure doesn't seem like a slam dunk to me, though I agree it's pretty good at level 25...though many solos at that level have nice save bonuses or ways to avoid the spell entirely.

I have the level 23 orb of ultimate imposition.

Say hi to a -15 save penalty.

-14, once a day, for a level 23 item, against level 25 encounters (so the solo is even higher level than that), and you still have to hit, and still have to get past the first save (which remains unaffected by all of this except the crown). Again, not a slam dunk, though it's nice.

Now, I don't know sleep, 'cos I ditched my level 1 dailies ages ago, but ... I have prismatic spray.
Since my orb's power is a daily, I use it for that.
To be fair, I only really use my prismatic spells to target will, and the beams' daze is meh ... but hey, it's a level 17 item, and to me, it costs a pittance so I might as well have one, right?

So yeah, I'm a high hit/high dam wizard, and I'll often use orb of imposition on a damage over time just 'cos the party is all about dishing out damage.

But I can stunlock the solo. And I started with wis 13.

Sure you "can", but you often "won't", and you will have burned high level magic items and daily powers to do it.

It's a fine tactic, but it is not on the level people seem to like to claim in this thread. You will not be auto-killing things with it every session, which seems to be the gist of some claims here.

 

[Caliban]

I'm afraid you are a few messages behind. We went through each item specifically. You were quoting my earlier general post. I think I already addressed most of the issues you just raised.

Sorry, I missed the part where you addressed the fact that I was having fun, and was quite effective aside from that trick.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Gentlemen...

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Danceofmasks]

Wis 13 gets 7 increases by level 25, so that is Wis 20, not 22, for a total of 5.

Character is a demigod

-14, once a day

-15, kthx

you still have to hit, and still have to get past the first save

I do not have sleep, so that's a moot point. However, the character is a maxed-hitroll build, and has +30 on his own (with prismatic spray) without CA, a power bonus, tac warlord (we don't have one, but just saying it's possible) ... level 27 solos will have less than 40 will.
Character is unlikely to miss.

It's a fine tactic, but it is not on the level people seem to like to claim in this thread.

The DM is specifically not sending any solos vs. us, just 'cos I would simply break the combat.
I rarely even get to use prismatic spray, 'cos early-encounter dumping of evard's or wall of fire tends to set the tone of combat in our favour anyhow.
Sorry for disagreeing with you, but anything that manipulates DM behaviour is by definition unbalanced.

you will have burned high level magic items and daily powers to do it

I drop a daily every encounter, so the other characters don't have to. I change the map, and the others abuse my daily.
For boss fights, hey ... everyone else has all their dailies.
As the controller, that's my job.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

Stating out a first level character is useless for this thought experiment. It needs to be a paragon tier character to even begin to get to the point of this part of the thread. All you did was make a normal orb wizard. Sure, normal orb wizards are fine (though yours will not live long with a 10 Con and no armor I suspect).

Go ahead, make the higher level wizard we are all talking about. I suspect you will rapidly see just how much is sacrificed to actually do it, and that the odds of living to that point were low to begin with.

The point was more about the stat spread and everything else being very, very doable. Picking up one feat and adding stat bumps to INT/WIS is hardly making sacrifices, and all you need is one specific Orb to force that first save to fail, and it fits right into a normal orb wizard's build. As far as 10 CON, that's really not that bad... as opposed to, say, 13 con which would net me all of 1 more healing surge and 3 more hp? Meh. In any case, I'll roll up the high level character just for the sake of argument.