Wizard Sleep CSR Ruling

[Liminosse]

if nothing else, use a dwarf, they can be wizards too...., takes gritty seargent background if you plan on taking WST so you can get free weapon pro longsword.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

OK, lv21 Orb Wizard designed simply around being a controller. Does the sleep trick just dandy, without sacrificing anything to do so... I'm still not getting where the whole "you need to make soooo many sacrifices" thing is coming from. The Orb of Karmic Focus is a decent choice without needing to use it specifically to force the failed save vs slow, but it helps a lot in that department. Phrenic Crown is used by half the dailies, and Legion's Hold also makes great use of it once he's lv29. Getting to this point is completely playable from lv1 to 21, and is still pretty optimized.

Race: Elf
Class: Wizard / Divine Oracle / Demigod
Level: 21

STATS
STR 10 (+0)
CON 12 (+1)
DEX 16 (+3)
INT 24 (+7)
WIS 26 (+8)
CHA 14 (+2)

Init: +22, Roll twice and take whichever result you want (Divine Oracle)
HP: 115 (bloodied 57), Surges: 9 (28hp/ea)
AC, Fort, Ref, Will: 33, 23, 27, 30

"Base" Spell to-hit bonus:
10 (half level) + 7 (Int mod) + 4 (implement) = +21
-Can reroll 1/encounter using Elven Accuracy! (Elf)
-Can roll twice and take higher result for Will attacks; dazed one round if you do it misses (Divine Oracle)

Penalty to enemy saves: -12(will atk w/orb) / -4(if will atk) / -2 (all)
Sources: -2 (Spell Focus), -2 (Phrenic Crown), -8 (Orb of Imposition)

Misc: Party cannot be surprised in combat, Gain a free move action to use any turn during encounter when you use an action point (Divine Oracle)

Trained Skills: Arcana (+22), Nature (+25), Insight (+23), History (+22), Religion (+22), Perception (+25, optional)

Feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness, Armor Proficiency (Leather), Initiate of the Faith, Durable, Elven Precision, Spell Focus, Resounding Thunder, Arcane Reach, Uncanny Dodge, Great Fortitude, Arcane Mastery, Spell Accuracy (Two Epic tier feats via retraining. You can also switch out great fort/toughness/durable or something for perception skill training if you want it as your WIS is very, very high and you have +2 from elf...)

Powers: At Will - Thunderwave, Ray of Frost
Encounter - Prophecy of Doom, Force Volley, Prismatic Burst, Winter's Wrath, Elven Accuracy
Daily - Hammer of Fate, Evard's Black Tentacles, Prismatic Beams, Sleep, Healing Word (cleric MC)
Utility - Good Omens, Stoneskin, Arcane Gate, Wall of Fog, Shield
(Note: Did not list spellbook's dailies as they're not terribly relevant. pick whatever other powers you'd find useful...)

Equipment:
-Phrenic Crown Lv17 (-2 to opponent's saves against will attack save ends)
-Orb of Karmic Resonance +4
-Some sort of magical +4 Leather armor (Displacer? idk)
-225,000gp for w/e else you need
Note: I gave him a lv21 item's value in gold instead of lv20 because two two of the items he got were low level... but yeah, technically it should be 125k not 225k

 

[Danceofmasks]

Just to nitpick, half of 21 is 10, not 15.
With elven accuracy, that should still shut down the bosses, but ... not sure if it's enough to deal with mooks.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

Just to nitpick, half of 21 is 10, not 15.
With elven accuracy, that should still shut down the bosses, but ... not sure if it's enough to deal with mooks.

*facepalm* fixed. I'm too used to thinking of characters that are level 30 whenever I roll up something in epic tier.

Also, the only thing I really gave up before was +1 to hit from going 16int instead of 18. The double-roll for will attacks from Divine Oracle should help a lot for general hitting, but I'm not sure where else I'd get any to-hit from outside of party members... any suggestions? :\

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, divine oracle's feature helps if you target will.
In that light, perhaps that at will illusion spell from class acts?

Also, you're not just losing 1 hitroll and damroll from going Int 16 ..
Int also helps your AC and Ref, which is why Int 20 wizards are awesome.
Hmm ... at lv 21, you should really have a +5 implement.
Now, with a boring magic staff +5 (and the AC bonus that comes with it), you can also have a lower level karmic resonance orb, as its power does not require you to attack with it, so ... a +3 version is 17,000 gp .. and at level 21 you can have ... say ... 5 of them with your pocket change.

On the subject of extra hitroll, as a max-int wizard (with min/maxed AC), I'm happy to walk into the thick of things and flank for CA. Wis-main builds aren't as confident.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

Well, divine oracle's feature helps if you target will.
In that light, perhaps that at will illusion spell from class acts?

Also, you're not just losing 1 hitroll and damroll from going Int 16 ..
Int also helps your AC and Ref, which is why Int 20 wizards are awesome.
Hmm ... at lv 21, you should really have a +5 implement.
Now, with a boring magic staff +5 (and the AC bonus that comes with it), you can also have a lower level karmic resonance orb, as its power does not require you to attack with it, so ... a +3 version is 17,000 gp .. and at level 21 you can have ... say ... 5 of them with your pocket change.

On the subject of extra hitroll, as a max-int wizard (with min/maxed AC), I'm happy to walk into the thick of things and flank for CA. Wis-main builds aren't as confident.

Gotcha. Well, dropping 1ref and gaining 1will in a way kind of cancels out, though REF is probably going to be targetted a bit more but by less annoying stuff, but wizards already get a +2 will... bah.

Walking into the fray for combat advantage from flanking is always fun, but if it's provoking opportunity attacks doesn't that kinda negate the point? Particularly as it's hard to flank multiple creatures, and the Wizard is kind of an AE specialist. Of course, if you're going for WST or something that changes things.

Ultimately, though, as far as to-hit it looks like your only suggestion would be to carry the orb in addition to a normal +5 implement, which really nets only +1 to-hit... hmm. I'd also guess your average wizard would only have 18 starting int instead of 16, so that still only seems to put me 1 to hit behind a high int character. While flanking is nice, it's also not the only source of combat advantage, and is hard to do to more than one creature at a time, and provokes OAs a ton as a wizard... it just doesn't seem practical unless you build for a battlemage designed to have fun in the fray.

 

[SableWyvern]

I reached a compromise with the Wizard player in my party on this issue.

His Orb of Imposition ability to extend an effect for a round works on any power, and he gets excellent mileage out of this, mainly with Icy Rays.

However, elites and solos get a save to resist any automatic extend, and only suffer save penalties (of any kind) on their first save. Any ability that applies a one-of penalty to saves would be ignored.

While that looks a little lop-sided, in that the elites and solos are gaining a lot of benefits, his ability to extend encounter and daily powers comes up a lot more often in-game then the enhanced elite/solo resistances.

 

[Danceofmasks]

@MadLordOfMilk

I think your method of comparison is flawed.
For any non-dex or int based class, saying average main attack stat is 18 is a fair assumption.
For any dex or int based class, since their main stat also affects AC and reflex (+initiative for dex) as well as hitroll and damroll, the average main attack stat should be 20.
Since int or dex are so heavily unbalanced, they're worth 5 points in any secondary stat.

So elven wis wizards are not trading 1 will for 1 ref, they're trading 4 will for 2 ref, 2 hitroll, 2 damroll, and 2 AC.
Now, wizards make more hitrolls and damrolls than any other class, so elven wizards must be considered solo-shutdown specialists, but otherwise sub-optimal.
(To be fair, wis based skills are awesome, and that's a selling point, but I reckon it's far from a wash)

Now, being in the thick of things happens all the time to a wizard.
Staying back and blasting isn't really an option when thunder wave is their AoE at-will. Wizards with scorching burst have more options.
For those who would counter that epic characters have less need of their at wills ... well, if the party is kitted for offense (i.e. multiple 20-attack stat characters), that is sometimes true.
Heck, I've one-manned supposedly really tough encounters with a single evard's (mainly 'cos my hitroll is nigh-maxed, and them foes never got to get out after making their saves before being re-grabbed via sustain).
9x9 zone ... the party just stood at the edge ... with some clever placing and using fellow PCs as a barricade, foes can't get out. Just thunder wave them further in occasionally and you're all set.
Int 16 elf wizards cannot successfully do this.

Surprise hitrolls can also come from elsewhere ... for instance, my L25 wizard is a tiefling.
Hellfire blood adds hit/dam for all fire effects, including my stun-lock power (prismatic spray).
Tieflings also get +1 to hit vs. any bloodied creature.
If I were a divine oracle, that's be a roll twice ... but IMO +4 hitroll with two powers (battle mage - if AP used at beginning of turn) is hands down better ... 'cos wizards don't have that many good powers targeting will.

I understand that my tiefling is definitely not an average wizard.
It's downright disgusting ... the average wizard, which has int 20 at level 1, is sub-optimal by comparison.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

For any dex or int based class, since their main stat also affects AC and reflex (+initiative for dex) as well as hitroll and damroll, the average main attack stat should be 20.
Since int or dex are so heavily unbalanced, they're worth 5 points in any secondary stat.

Every stat effects a defense. Reflex is important but it's far from the only defense... hell, Will effects tend to be the ones that suck the most, but are admittedly less common than Reflex attacks afaik. However, the fact that it affects AC is definitely a boon. As far as +1 initiative IF it's dex... well, the value of that isn't anything crazy, but admittedly useful. If your character doesn't have a ton of use out of +init, then really the edge from it is just +AC. Saying that's worth doubling the point buy cost (1 ac) is debatable.

So elven wis wizards are not trading 1 will for 1 ref, they're trading 4 will for 2 ref, 2 hitroll, 2 damroll, and 2 AC.
Now, wizards make more hitrolls and damrolls than any other class, so elven wizards must be considered solo-shutdown specialists, but otherwise sub-optimal.
(To be fair, wis based skills are awesome, and that's a selling point, but I reckon it's far from a wash)

OK. But no. Taking exactly the same point buy from one race to the other, that's -2 to the stat, not -4, which is only -1 to the modifier. So it's +3 Will -1 Ref -1 hit -1dmg -1AC, and a bonus to all the WIS effects on the Wizard's powers (more squares pushed by thunderwave, orb is more effective, &c). But yeah, the net difference is that... though you also have to keep in mind that some powers add WIS mod for damage though (IE cloud of daggers), so it's not a direct loss of dmg mods (though it isn't as common certainly).

Now, being in the thick of things happens all the time to a wizard.
Staying back and blasting isn't really an option when thunder wave is their AoE at-will. Wizards with scorching burst have more options.

Nonono, I meant literally standing in the fray to get combat advantage from flanking like you mentioned. Of course everyone's going to get attacked. Though, with thunderwave + arcane reach + resounding thunder, it's a 4x4 area that you can cast originating from 2 squares away, so it's not like you'd have to be right next to the targets either, and hitting makes them go even further away.

For those who would counter that epic characters have less need of their at wills ... well, if the party is kitted for offense (i.e. multiple 20-attack stat characters), that is sometimes true.
Heck, I've one-manned supposedly really tough encounters with a single evard's (mainly 'cos my hitroll is nigh-maxed, and them foes never got to get out after making their saves before being re-grabbed via sustain).
9x9 zone ... the party just stood at the edge ... with some clever placing and using fellow PCs as a barricade, foes can't get out. Just thunder wave them further in occasionally and you're all set.

OK

Int 16 elf wizards cannot successfully do this.

Really? But is that more an effect of having min/maxed hit where losing 1 or 2 kills it, or the actual net loss every time you lose 2 attack bonus? I could argue the same thing about losing 1 or 2 killing lockdown with the orb. 16 WIS wizards can't do it without items, 18 WIS needs to take demigod.

Surprise hitrolls can also come from elsewhere ... for instance, my L25 wizard is a tiefling.
Hellfire blood adds hit/dam for all fire effects, including my stun-lock power (prismatic spray).
Tieflings also get +1 to hit vs. any bloodied creature.
If I were a divine oracle, that's be a roll twice ... but IMO +4 hitroll with two powers (battle mage - if AP used at beginning of turn) is hands down better ... 'cos wizards don't have that many good powers targeting will.

There are plenty of nice powers that attack will defense. Legion's Hold and Prismatic Spray are two huge, huge examples. Particularly the first one. There's also Prismatic Beams, Sleep, Prismatic Burst, &c... Confusion is also useful, but situational...

I understand that my tiefling is definitely not an average wizard.
It's downright disgusting ... the average wizard, which has int 20 at level 1, is sub-optimal by comparison.

Oh, of course that's not your average example, I wouldn't expect your typical Wizard to pull that off. BTW, can you PM me the build or the character's current stats at your level? Or I guess post it as it is relevant, because this post has more or less turned into "can an optimized WIS-focused Wizard compare to a typical INT-focused optimized build (IE yours).

 

[Danceofmasks]

I've already posted the build in this thread, awhile back (the relevant stats anyhow, since actual gameplay and party composition determines much of your gear/powers, etc) ... where I showed that the character, having begun with wis 13, can achieve the -16 penalty to lock down solos.

And it's all the fault of AV, and the broken stuff inside.

Although, I can't actually do it (one point of penalty short) till level 26 or 27, 'cos my DM (reasonably, IMO) doesn't let us acquire, by any means, stuff more than 1 level above our character level.

The core points of the character is thus:

Int 20, con 13, wis 13, cha 12 ... putting 8 in str is normal, but 8 in dex is funnier.
That will:
Give you the cha 13 required for spell focus at 11th.
Give you +6 hit/dam right off the bat (with hellfire blood), where basic scorching bursts and flaming sphere will pwn your foes. Burning hands is nice, but I find that I rarely got the opportunity to use it without setting party members on fire (not that I have a problem with that, it's just requires too much mid combat conversation).
Give you AC 19 (base 10, int +5, leather +2, staff +1, level +1) at level 2, as you take the prof feat. Ideally, as you find magical leather, so AC 20.

Be flexible with implements. Use nonmagical staff for the AC, but a wand or whatever to blat with.
In heroic tier ('cos paragon is all orb territory), I'd recommend a wand of color spray ... as a pyro, you'd be using fire shroud ('cos it's awesome), but there will be many instances where the right wand can allow you to rule the battlefield.

The build is tanky enough that I happily provoke OAs on purpose to allow our fighter to get extra swings.
Especially if the party carries potions (just in case), the fighter (other defenders less so) may run low in surges.
Trade damage on purpose because as an offensive party, you end up getting hurt less.
Also, being a fire specialist, it's reasonable to ask the party to choose items with fire resist ... then just target (for example) your defender's square as he uses come and get it.

If permitted (and playing in FR), being a red wizard (read: Thay region) starts you with 30 hp ... going this route, toughness at level 4 is advisable, as it will push your hp to 44, setting your surge value to 11.

Pumping wis all the way is one way to play this build ... and with eventual lockdown capability (due to AV's phrenic crown + orb of ultimate imposition), retraining an at-will for thunderwave sometime at paragon (not 11th, since you need to pick up spell focus and second implement at 11th .. i wouldn't say 12th either, 'cos those defensive feats are a priority) is a go.
Hmm ... in light of that, perhaps (pre-emptively) retraining for thunderwave at 10th is an option.

It is also hilarious to take blade initiate + intelligent blademaster, if you're playing with sleep, 'cos when the party is laying in the boot, being able to contribute with a vicious executioner's axe is made of win.

There is a downside to the build ... staff + orb are gonna sit in your hands, and main attack implement will be an orb of mental dominion much of the time (due to it having an awesome power and no level bump ... i.e. same cost as boring magic orb), you're already juggling implements to make use of ultimate imposition ... so other awesome orbs, such as karmic resonance, may never get used (at least not before the party is already well on the way to winning).
Also, the build never qualifies for astral fire (unless the very last stat bump at 28 is dex + int .. I wouldn't, though), so it has the "fire not quite as hot as it could be" feel.

On a final note, don't forget bloodhunt.
I do that all the time, and retroactively noticing ", I should have hit 'cos I missed by 1 and they were bloodied" is really annoying.