D&D General Wizard vs Fighter - the math

[Aldarc]

Not every problem or issue with a game can be dismissed as a "DM problem." Sometimes the problem is the game design itself.

I almost feel like there should be a TTRPG fallacy that deals with blaming every problem on "bad DMs."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not every problem or issue with a game can be dismissed as a "DM problem." Sometimes the problem is the game design itself.

I almost feel like there should be a TTRPG fallacy that deals with blaming every problem on "bad DMs."

Sure, but it goes both ways. Sometimes it feels that people just refuse to consider any steps they could take to address the issue so that they can continue complaining that the game sucks.

 

[Minigiant]

So if you feel 4e or PF2 handles things better, why not just play those games instead?

The point is not about switching systems, it is recognizing where the edition's issues come from.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The point is not about switching systems, it is recognizing where the edition's issues come from.

That it is not some completely different game?

 

[Minigiant]

That it is not some completely different game?

No.

That's 5e's mechanics don't match a huge chunk of its base.

If everyone who doesn't match with 5es mechanics leaves, 5e gets cancelled tomorrow and 6e's ads floods the net by next week.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No.

That's 5e's mechanics don't match a huge chunk of its base.

You assume. You might be right, but they definitely are way less bothered by it than you.

If everyone who doesn't match with 5es mechanics leaves, 5e gets cancelled tomorrow and 6e's ads floods the net by next week.

And that would be the only way the complete rewrite you seem to want would happen.

 

[Minigiant]

You assume. You might be right, but they definitely are way less bothered by it than you.

I assume based on WOTC's words and actions.

WOTC openly attempting to fix it by going in the opposite direction and got a resounding NO by their surveys.

Either the customer base is bothered or WOTC is lying.

 

[FrozenNorth]

They came in from other regions bringing supplies with them. They're raiding the countryside far and wide because the adventurers hired to stop them decided to take a quick vacay. They're eating the villagers. They're eating whatever monsters ever eat in a dungeon. What throws verisimilitude out the window is that that a group can repeatedly just have a fight or two, go away for a week and expect to fight the same level of challenge because the orcs are just going to sit around doing absolutely nothing.

Seems that the adventure has changed completely. From completing a dungeon delve to stopping the orcs from pillaging the countryside and eating villagers.

Which is doable, but is more work for the DM. You have to come up with new monsters, engaging encounters, ask yourself how these monsters were brought in, what the consequences on the environment are (hey, the spider-rider Arachnid clan are involved, maybe there should be a bunch of spider webs as foreshadowing).

Which ties neatly into the original point: if the DM has to do a bunch of extra work whenever the players engage in a 5MWD, than it’s not a DM problem, it’s just a problem.

Do you ever seriously go into depth about what the monsters eat? The ecology of monster infested regions or caves has never been a strong point of D&D so maybe the orcs are just eating all those strawmen being thrown out left and right.

All the time. Both as a player and as a DM. If a dungeon is cut off from any reliable source of food and water (say, a wizard’s demi-plane), the monsters in it are likely going to be Constructs and Undead that don’t need to eat.

I certainly don’t use ninja divisions of orcs: large quantitities of orcs would leave pretty obvious marks on terrain as they go through.

The purpose of this verisimilitude is that it allows players to better interact with the environment. If I’m going into a wizard’s abandoned demi-plane, I should probably avoid spells that target a creature’s mind. The signs of a large hostile force means that it may be an encounter that can be avoided.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Not just that, if my decisions to fall back and recover resources were consistently met with the equivalent of 1000 orc scenarios, either me or the DM would be quitting. I'm all for pushing on as a PC, but if and when i try to rest there's something like that, it's ridiculous. I mean, it's a ridiculous scenario in any event.

Good call on mentioning the DM. I think the DM described is pretty close to burn out in his response to the players 5MD is « well, when you come back to the ruin, there are 100 orcs waiting for you ».

 

[FrozenNorth]

My remark is specifically about trusting the DM. I have never seen a DM "punish" players for resting or leaving an area when the story dictates; they often do so without consequence. If the story dictates otherwise, they players are still free to make that decision, but it might have consequences. Some DMs use dice rolls for this (maybe a skill check from the air sniffing creature to see if it can track them), and others use their judgement. No matter which one has been used, I have never seen it done unfairly.

Except the post was in response to a DM who suggested that if the party interrupted their delve and came back, there would be 100 orcs waiting for them.
So there are clearly different approaches to this.