Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Bryan898]

Please stop talking about all your campaign specifics. Other people have called you out on this, yet you persist. You're hurting America.

How was I talking about my campaign specifics? Someone tried to argue that 32 point buy was a high point buy when it seems the norm. Nobody else has called me out on campaign specifics, as I've used none. As for hurting America, I find it amusing that instead of coming back with a logical arguement against my point you try to make an insult. This is a debate topic, if you can't stand the other side's debate try to debate back with an arguement, not a childish comment like the one above.

Gate, maybe? How about whirlwind form? They can just suck him up. It's going to take him a little time to escape their clutches, even if he can fly.

Maybe you should read the spell. You can summon up to your Caster Level with Gate when summoning multiple creatures. So you could only summon one at a time, not four as posted before, unless you're spending four rounds casting gate four times. As for picking them up with their clutches, once again you have not read the ability. It has a Reflex save DC, the Elder's being a DC 28. It's not even close to a sure thing that the monk will be picked up give a 20th level monk could have a Ref save of +26 (+12 base, +6 dex, +5 resistance, +1 luckstone +2 lightning reflexes). Another terrible arguement.

Dead wrong. Magic item creation for unspecified items is OPTIONAL. It is always subject to DM whimsy.

I wasn't arguing whether or not is was optional or not. I was arguing whether or not it could be core, and seeing as there are core rules to justify it being made there's no reason to have it otherwise. As for it being subject to DM whimsy, EVERYTHING is subject to DM whimsy.

Did the monk have enough ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to know to do that?

Sure why not? As said by tylermalan, the debate is assuming both have spent their entire lives readying to battle each other. Therefore, it's very plausible to assume that the monk has researched certain spells or hired someone to research it for him. Considering the rules of the debate may be helpful before you post such an arguement.

He can't escape. Haven't they been talking about quickening dimension lock, or hitting him with QTS+Otto? I've only seen you respond with, "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it," or some variant thereof.

Sure he can, because he bought rod's of cancellation which stop the forcecage. Or ring's of greater spellstoring with disintegrate in them which other people have mentioned.

The QTS+Otto was mentioned yes, first by me on the 2nd page post #60, where I said it was one of the better strategies to be employed by the wizard, along with the other spells I would have chosen for the wizard.

As for the response of "In my campaign we don't do it that way" I have yet to discard a strategy based on the way we handle things in my campaign. I simply stated how we handle the spell, then went on to discuss the strategy I'd use by Core without my campaign specifics.

You should actually read my posts, the rest of the thread, and the spells you're speaking of using before you make an arguement based on them. So far it seems that you have yet to do so. Or if you're going to put words in my mouth about "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it", you should post the quotes that you're referring to.

 

[10th man down]

Actually, with absolutely NO equipment the monk wins every time.

No spell book and no spell components. Wizard cannot even prepare any spells. Monk wins because he is too fast for the wizard who cannot run away.

Unfortunately you're wrong in this one. As the wizard knows that he has to fight with no equipment he simply takes Eschew Materials to cast all those spells with inexpensive material components. Moreover he takes Spell Mastery several times as he knows that he won't have access to his spellbook.

End result: Monk 0 Wizard 1

 

[moritheil]

Maybe you should read the spell. You can summon up to your Caster Level with Gate when summoning multiple creatures. So you could only summon one at a time, not four as posted before, unless you're spending four rounds casting gate four times. As for picking them up with their clutches, once again you have not read the ability. It has a Reflex save DC, the Elder's being a DC 28. It's not even close to a sure thing that the monk will be picked up give a 20th level monk could have a Ref save of +26 (+12 base, +6 dex, +5 resistance, +1 luckstone +2 lightning reflexes). Another terrible arguement.

That wasn't my idea; it was a throwaway guess on the summoning idea. But fine. How about a balor? What do you propose the monk does when the wizard pulls out a balor (maybe while in TS, as everyone keeps mentioning) and leaves the fight for the balor to clean him up?

I wasn't arguing whether or not is was optional or not. I was arguing whether or not it could be core, and seeing as there are core rules to justify it being made there's no reason to have it otherwise. As for it being subject to DM whimsy, EVERYTHING is subject to DM whimsy.

Like houserules. Haven't you read the discussions here about how magic item creation is NOT an actual official part of the rules?

Sure why not? As said by tylermalan, the debate is assuming both have spent their entire lives readying to battle each other. Therefore, it's very plausible to assume that the monk has researched certain spells or hired someone to research it for him. Considering the rules of the debate may be helpful before you post such an arguement.

Then that costs him resources. You can't give that to the monk for free. What you're proposing is allowing the monk character to metagame.

Sure he can, because he bought rod's of cancellation which stop the forcecage. Or ring's of greater spellstoring with disintegrate in them which other people have mentioned.

But you haven't built a complete monk with all those strategies combined. Is it cost-efficient? You don't have an infinite amount of money.

As for the response of "In my campaign we don't do it that way" I have yet to discard a strategy based on the way we handle things in my campaign. I simply stated how we handle the spell, then went on to discuss the strategy I'd use by Core without my campaign specifics.

You should actually read my posts, the rest of the thread, and the spells you're speaking of using before you make an arguement based on them. So far it seems that you have yet to do so. Or if you're going to put words in my mouth about "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it", you should post the quotes that you're referring to.

Okay, well, you asked for it. Coming right up.

 

[moritheil]

We'll not bring wishes into the equation please. The game will literally break if you do. Otherwise my monk buys a ring of wishes and wishes that your wizard forgot all his spells he prepared for the day =P. Or simply use it to make the saves I fail, or to undo your successful save against my attack, etc.

This was in answer to someone who was talking about using LUCKBLADES. You know, the ones that let you reroll missed attacks? Funny how wishes suddenly came into it. And, you know, when it comes down to it, it's funny how you're avoiding a core wizard spell. Did you catch the later discussion about how much harder the wizard's wishes are to save against than the monk's. I did.

Forcecage IMO is cheese as well, I don't really allow it in my game, it kind of goes the way of Imprisonment.

...

I've played quite a few high level/ epic games, and I've NEVER seen a fighting class without some form of fly by level 20.

You responded that something was cheese and not allowed in your game. First time.

Another item that I don't allow because of it's horribly broken applications... but yes, allowing these cause much damage.

Again, you refer to things that are banned in your campaign.

You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used. You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.

Incidentally, this is untrue, as I discussed above.

Did you miss the terms of the debate? "Core rules only". A greater rod of sudden quicken is core. A home-brewed antimagic field is not. You can forget all of your house rules about what you would and would not allow - they are inapplicable.

You totally ignored this poster when he pointed out that your houseruled AMF item can be allowed under SUGGESTED rules that HAPPEN to be in some core books, but ARE NOT CORE. The EN Worlds forum established long ago that the custom build item rules suggested there are actually house-rules, and people discussing magic item creation regularly get asked to take it into the house-rules forum.


Finally, I will prove that other posters have called you out on talking about your own campaign already.

And more to the point, all you prove by bringing them up is that, once again, when someone talks about something that varies from most people's experience, that their opinion really stems from a series of house rules that they have adopted that have changed the baseline assumed by the game.

This point is so often true, it's silly.

 

[Bryan898]

That wasn't my idea; it was a throwaway guess on the summoning idea. But fine. How about a balor? What do you propose the monk does when the wizard pulls out a balor (maybe while in TS, as everyone keeps mentioning) and leaves the fight for the balor to clean him up?

Yes, a balor would decimate the monk as I said before. Also, gate is a powerful spell as I admitted before. However, the chance the monk has revolves around acting before the wizard does, as high level battles often come down to winning initiative.

Like houserules. Haven't you read the discussions here about how magic item creation is NOT an actual official part of the rules?

Actually no, I haven't. So instead of assuming that everyone has read that and being a jerk if someone doesn't take it into account, you could have been polite and pointed out the thread the first time around. Then I could have read it and politely taken back my previous statement about creating items, assuming I agree with the thread.

Then that costs him resources. You can't give that to the monk for free. What you're proposing is allowing the monk character to metagame.

It's not what I'm proposing, these were the terms and conditions of the contest as stated by the creator of the thread.

But you haven't built a complete monk with all those strategies combined. Is it cost-efficient? You don't have an infinite amount of money.

No I haven't yet, but could and possibly will. However, 11,000 gp per wand to stop what is one of the most effective spell combinations against the monk isn't much.

This was in answer to someone who was talking about using LUCKBLADES. You know, the ones that let you reroll missed attacks? Funny how wishes suddenly came into it. And, you know, when it comes down to it, it's funny how you're avoiding a core wizard spell. Did you catch the later discussion about how much harder the wizard's wishes are to save against than the monk's. I did.

A.) The purpose for the Luckblades is the +1 to saving throws, not to reroll the miss chance on an attack.
B.) I'm not ignoring wish nor contesting the use of it. I was implying that if wish is allowed in this debate it should be to the terms allowed in the PhB. What I am contesting is using it in terms of the more powerful abilities that are under the DM jurisdiction, those that go above and beyond the power of those listed, such as the example I stated of wishing the opposing wizard forgets all his spells.
C.) To cast Wish in this example fight, it would need to start at least +5000 XP above 20th level, or the Wizard would need to start at 19th level with enough XP to be 20th level. The reason for this being that one cannot cast a spell with an XP component if the required XP would drop him a level (page 174 "XP Cost", PhB).

You responded that something was cheese and not allowed in your game. First time.

This was in reference to Forcecage. Yes, I do believe it is cheese, and should have gone the way of most no save spells in the 3.5 change (Harm, Imprisonment, others). However, I simply stated my opinion, but continued to argue strategies against Forcecage and take it into account as a viable strategy for the wizard to take in this exercise. I in no way said that Forcecage should be disallowed, and was simply stating an opinion, not making an arguement on it.

Again, you refer to things that are banned in your campaign.

Quote referred to Greater Metamagic Rod of Quickening. Once again, simply opinion, I still took into account the existence of the Rod in Core rules, and its effect on the duel. I didn't argue for it to be disallowed, nor did I not take it into effect in stating strategies against it.

You totally ignored this poster when he pointed out that your houseruled AMF item can be allowed under SUGGESTED rules that HAPPEN to be in some core books, but ARE NOT CORE. The EN Worlds forum established long ago that the custom build item rules suggested there are actually house-rules, and people discussing magic item creation regularly get asked to take it into the house-rules forum.

Once again I had not read the En Worlds thread on establishing what is core or not about item creation. However, I was merely making a point that the monk could get access to an Anti-Magic Field, which he still can through a ring of major spell storing if he chooses to go that route.

As to the others calling me out- that was in reference to the AMF item stated above. The decision that item creation rules weren't core as decided by EN World (if such a decision is theirs to make and not WotC), had not been brought to my attention as of yet.

You accuse me of using my house rules to justify my arguement for the monk, however the only presumbly house rule item or rule I used was the AMF item, which was admittedly brought up due to a lack of knowledge about about a different thread. The other's were simply stated opinion, and in no way shaped my arguement as what I put as banned in my campaign I still put strategies out that took them into account. Now if you wish to debate, how about we get back to the thread topic and discontinue our hijack?

 

[Bryan898]

Let's ground this discussion, shall we? --> "Is there something that the Monk can do, that other classes can't do, that dooms the poor Wiz 20?

A.) As far as fighter-type classes go: Move extremely fast to close with the monk in one round up to 180 feet away with a charge. This becomes moot in an open area, but in a more cramped area such as a dungeon could be effective. Once magical flight becomes a factor, most speeds will even out, though the wizard will have the advantage of being able to shapechange or polymorph into a creature with a faster natural fly speed. However, in a more cramped area where the ceiling is within the range of a monk's jump on a charge it is effective. This is because many spells that have been outlined in the wizard's capabilities are at a range of close which maximizes at 75'. To move and cast a close range spell the wizard must be within 135' (60' fly movement), which could allow the monk to charge on his turn. A quickened teleport admittedly stops this advantage, and it is limited by terrain.

B.) Have an ability that could conceivable end the fight with a Fort save. No other fighter class has a similar ability, and the Wizard's weak save is his Fort save.

C.) Have saves that give him a chance to continually make his saves.

D.) Have an ability to turn ethereal, which makes him immune to most of the wizards spells, save force effects, and may give him a chance to close with the wizard.

That would be about it IMO.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Actually, with absolutely NO equipment the monk wins every time.

No spell book and no spell components. Wizard cannot even prepare any spells. Monk wins because he is too fast for the wizard who cannot run away.

Yes, I know this is silly.

Another approach is for the monk to sunder or "disarm" (take) the Wizard's spell component pouch. No spells that have material componenets certainly reduces the options for the Wizard. Sunder is easier, as the pouch just might be "well-secured."

Err...what 10th man down said. Yes, I admit Forcecage was a bad example. But there will still be a number of spells the monk will be utterly unable to deal with.

 

[Bryan898]

Here's my Monk that I hope would stand a chance against a Wizard: 20th level, 28 pt buy, 760,000 starting wealth (DMG pg 135).

Human Monk 20; HD 20d8+100 (average 193); Init +11; Spd 90', fly 60' (boots); AC 37 t 33, ff 30 (+7 Dex, +11 Wis, +4 class bonus, +1 luck, +4 bracers of armor); Bab/Grp +15/+19; Atk unarmed strike +22 melee (3d8+4); Full Attack +22/+22/+22/+17/+12 melee (3d8+4); SA Flurry of blows, quiverring palm (DC 33) 1/day, stunning fist (DC 33) 5/day; SQ abundant step (dimension door CL 10), diamond soul (SR 30), empty body (etherealness 20 rounds/day), evasion, improved evasion, ki strike (adamantine, lawful, and magic), perfect self, purity of body, slow fall (any distance), still mind, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, wholeness of body (40 hp/day); AL Lawful Neutral; SV Fort +26 Ref +25 Will +31 (+12 base, +5 resistance, +1 luck: Fort +5 Con +2 feat. Ref +7 Dex. Will +11 Wis, +2 feat); Abilities Str 12 (18- +6 belt) Dex 14 (24- +4 book +6 gloves) Con 14 (20- +4 book +2 ioun stone) Int 10 Wis 16 (32- +5 level +5 book +6 periapt) Cha 8.
Skills: Escape Artist +31, Hide +31, Jump +52, Knowledge (arcana) +24, Spot +35.
Feats: Ability Focus (Quiverring Palm), Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse (unarmed strike); Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.
Possessions
- Stat Related: Book of Wis +5, book of Con +4, book of Dex +4, belt of giant str +6, periapt of wisdom +6, gloves of dexterity +6, ioun stone- incandescent (*473,500 gp)
- Buffs: bracers of armor +4, cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, stone of good luck (+1 luck to saves, ability checks, skill checks) (*111,000 gp)
- Use Activated: boots- winged (fly 3/day), dust of disappearence (x2- invisible but can't be seen by see invisibility or invisibility purge), gem of seeing (true seeing 30 min/day), rod of cancellation (6), figurine of wondrous power- ebony fly (*173,000 gp)

 

[Anubis]

Using the current rules, the higher level you go, the more likely the monk will win the duel. While the spellcasting classes usually start outshining the melee classes at higher levels, the monk is an exception to this due to their monstrous saving throws and numerous special abilities. At the upper levels, the wizard is unlikely to even be able to hit the monk. At Level 20+, the monk will almost undoubtedly have a means by which to fly and will have good enough saves so as not to have to worry about instant death spells or Mordenkainen's disjunction (which are the top spells for the wizard). Energy attacks are useless against monks due to improved evasion, so that means the wizard's only course of action will be magic missile. No dice, the wizard loses.

The monk is the only melee class that can stop the wizard at epic levels, really, almost entirely due to the special abilities and saving throws.

Monks underpowered? Not even. That's the funniest thing I ever heard. They're the second most powerful class out there next to clerics, at least in the core rules (warmage and warlock are both superior using the optional books).

 

[Shadowdweller]

You know, if you really want to test this an actual combat should be conducted...and both monk and wizard builds should be built blindly. Do spoiler tags work in this forum?

Spoiler

Testing...testing

Edit: Nice. For those who do not know, to use those [spoiler and [/spoiler with proper closing brackets ]. Perhaps a test fight itself is inappropriate here (as opposed to one of the other forums). But given a dice roller/verifier, such as www.invisiblecastle.com there really shouldn't be any difficulty conducting it. Slinging opinions and counter-opinions all day long will only get you so far, after all...