Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I personally like monks, weak as they are, and all these people just taking the easy route and repeating for the 20th time what spells will be certain doom for the monk instead of being creative and trying to find ways for the monk to win is just extremely annoying. Can this thread go 50 words straight without "forcecage" being mentioned? Some particular issues I have with these arena assumptions:

1) Why does it have to be a flat, wide-open plain? May as well pit a machine gunner against the monk. Any *interesting* battlefield should have ample cover, concealment, terrain, etc... Maybe even weather effects which would, while hurting both classes, certainly hinder spellcasting more.

2) Moment of Prescience: If it's an arena battle, how is it fair that either character got to take any preparatory actions before the initiative roll? If the wizard can cast that hours beforehand, and it's OK, why can't the monk nudge his cleric friend to blow a day's worth of buffs on him before the fight, either? "I'll take GMW, and bless just for the heck of it. And, ooh, don't go easy on the death ward!"

3) Starting them far apart in plain view of each other is unrealistic, a clear boon to the wizard, and is the primary reason so many people have said that the initiative roll determines the victor. If they have to start within 100 feet, but can choose to start hiding amongst the bushes or whatever, the fight becomes far more unpredictable.

4) No leaving the arena via teleport or whatever else. Within the arena is fine, though. If this really is a spectator thing, the whole teleport back fully prepared thing is just beyond b.s. Even if it wasn't for entertainment, it's meant to be a decisive, SINGLE battle. If the wizard can teleport outside, why can't the monk turn ethereal or use his skills to escape as well, taking the fight into the streets?

 

[tylermalan]

Because I would say that the Monk turning ethereal and using Abundant Step to escape has a far less chance of being successful than the Wizard's Contigency Teleport. Now, that's not to say that the Monk CAN'T do that, but its almost pointless for the Monk to do so. Escape to the streets when his entire purpose is to close with the Wizard? Ok, the Wizard blows up the city. What streets?

In addition, I don't think there is one environment out there that would mean certain doom for the Wizard - no matter how you hack it, the Wizard ALWAYS has the advantage.

 

[Storm Raven]

IME actually most characters are built on that many points. IIRC there was a poll a while back on ENworld and most groups used 32 point buy. The higher point buy is in no way to the monk's advantage, because the wizard also gains the higher point buy. It's not like the monk gets extra points.

Except that by the rules, that's a "high-powered game". Normal point buy is 22 points, with 24 and 28 being "tough campaign" options.

How exactly does the Wizard get 4 greater air elementals, and what is the monk doing while this happens? Not too mention only a dumb monk would focus on the air elementals instead of going after the wizard.

Time Stop. Summon, Summon, Summon, Summon. How hard was that?

No I understood perfectly the rules of the debate. There are core rules for creating items that aren't specifically in the magical items section of the DMG. It's on page 285 of the DMG. Making an item that could use Antimagic field is core by the rules.

Optional rules. Stated clearly as such. Thus not core.

I tire of the resort to forcecage arguement. Here's an idea, the monk buys 3-5 rod's of cancellation for 11,000 each... no more forcecages. So now what ya gonna do?

Great. Now you are spending money on crap of situational value. Being a wizard, I have a vast repertoire of spells that I can use to deal with the monk. If you want to focus on one option, you won't be as good at the others.

True, but the monk could have diverted more points into his Wis, or taken the feat Ability Focus (Quiverring Palm) to add +2 to the DC. Ability Focus is Core btw, and is found in the back of the MM.

Not for PCs. Sorry.

They are listed as typically only being used by monsters, not exclusively. The fact that Awesome Blow is listed as a possible Fighter bonus feat and the recent statement by WotC that the monk may take Improved Natural Attack further cement this statement. The monk could easily improve the DC of Quiverring Palm to 33.

"Statements from WotC" are not core rules. Sorry.

Yeah, but if the wizard doesn't get the monk off the bat he's almost certainly dead as well. Also, the only real viable way I've seen to lock down the monk is to rely on forcecage, and I've provided a simple solution above.

All the wizard has to do is delay the monk long enough for him to get into the air. Even with boots of flying the monk's flight duration is far less than the wizard's with a fly spell. All the wizard has to do is stay away from the monk until his boots wear off. Then the monk is landbound again.

No, you lock him down, it's his turn he escapes + a move, and you're back to where you started.

The wizard is all about delaying the monk and dragging the conflict out to bring his options to bear. The monk spending time dealing with obstacles the wizard has placed in his way works to the wizard's advantage.

 

[Sputnick]

Real question

So what class is better suited to take out this 20th lvl wizard, cause of all core classes I think it is the best equiped which is what I've been trying to say....sry for the confusion.

 

[Storm Raven]

So what class is better suited to take out this 20th lvl wizard, cause of all core classes I think it is the best equiped which is what I've been trying to say....sry for the confusion.

I'd probably go with the cleric or the druid. They have the stamina to last, spells at their disposal, and reasonable fighting capability to boot.

 

[10th man down]

Ability Focus not for PCs

PCs can take it, as explained in the DnD Main FAQ on page 13.

10th

 

[Storm Raven]

PCs can take it, as explained in the DnD Main FAQ on page 13.

Which is interesting, but not part of the core rules.

 

[10th man down]

Let's take a look at the SRD, Monster Feats:

These feats apply to abilities most commonly found amongst monsters or are related to monsters.

Most commonly doesn't mean that they are exclusively reserved to them.

Some examples:

Archmage with the High Arcana Spell-like Ability. Is it a (Sp)? Yes. Is he therefore able to take Empower Spell-like Ability? Yes. It's a [General] feat, therefore open to everyone who meets the prerequisite {PHB/SRD: general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group} in this case a (Sp) and not a [Monstrous] Feat, which can only be taken be monsters.

Death Attack of an Assassin. Special Attack? Yes. Save DC? Yes. Ability Focus prerequisite: Special Attack:

Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm. Yes and Yes-> eglible for Ability Focus.

DnD Main FAQ: Clarification of the Rules.

10th

 

[Bryan898]

Except that by the rules, that's a "high-powered game". Normal point buy is 22 points, with 24 and 28 being "tough campaign" options.

So what? I'm missing the point of lowering the point buy arguement. If you lower the point buy then not only does the monk's stats lower but so do the wizard's. The wizard will need a high Int and decent Con and Dex for hit points and AC/ touch attacks. The Monk I post needs a high Wis, and decent Dex and Con. They both require the same attributes and lowering the point buy affects both the same.

Time Stop. Summon, Summon, Summon, Summon. How hard was that?

Not very. You cast time stop, assume you get 4 rounds, then summon four greater air elementals. A 9th level spell, and four 8th level spells or 2-3 more 9th level spells. Not a very great strategy for the cost.

Great. Now you are spending money on crap of situational value. Being a wizard, I have a vast repertoire of spells that I can use to deal with the monk. If you want to focus on one option, you won't be as good at the others

Yeah, 11,000 gp out of 760,000 gp isn't a bad deal when forcecage is the most mentioned strategy so far. You do have a vast repertoire of spells, many of which allow a save, which gives the monk a chance. Forcecage was one of the strategies that doesn't, and making it moot for a measly 33,000 gp is definetely worth it.

Not for PCs. Sorry.

Says who? The people that have the authority to determine the rules says it is, and you're not anyone to say different. The very text in the monster manual says the feats are typically used only by monsters, not exclusively. The feats aren't limited to only monsters. Otherwise, good luck crafting a construct such as golem or shield guardian as its in the MM.

"Statements from WotC" are not core rules. Sorry.

Once again, it's in the book and nowhere does it state that PCs can't choose the feat. As for statements from WotC, just because you don't like what they say doesn't mean that its not true. Like it or not, they make the core rules and it's their right to change them or interpret them as they see fit. But that's a different discussion.

All the wizard has to do is delay the monk long enough for him to get into the air. Even with boots of flying the monk's flight duration is far less than the wizard's with a fly spell. All the wizard has to do is stay away from the monk until his boots wear off. Then the monk is landbound again.

And all the monk has to do is go into an enclosed area (such as a dungeon), where flying is not a viable option and wait for the wizard to come and get him. As the monk doesn't age, and there's no immortality spell for the wizard in the Core rules, eventually the wizard either pursues him or dies of old age.

The wizard is all about delaying the monk and dragging the conflict out to bring his options to bear. The monk spending time dealing with obstacles the wizard has placed in his way works to the wizard's advantage.

No, it's your turn, you cast a quickened dimensional lock and forcecage. It's the monk's turn, he escapes using one of his rod's of cancellation and a move action. You're back to square one, your turn again, except you're out a 7th level spell, an 8th level spell, and one of three daily uses of a 170,000 gp item. Meanwhile the monk's out of a measly 11,000 gp item. This is definetely in the monk's advantage.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Because I would say that the Monk turning ethereal and using Abundant Step to escape has a far less chance of being successful than the Wizard's Contigency Teleport. Now, that's not to say that the Monk CAN'T do that, but its almost pointless for the Monk to do so. Escape to the streets when his entire purpose is to close with the Wizard? Ok, the Wizard blows up the city. What streets?

In addition, I don't think there is one environment out there that would mean certain doom for the Wizard - no matter how you hack it, the Wizard ALWAYS has the advantage.

By my arguement I meant to say that if you allow such abilities to enable the monk or wizard to leave the arena, then it's not really an arena battle. By saying they fight in the arena, whther it be a flat plain or a 10 foot cube, it should be assumed that they STAY in the arena. Teleporting to another end or screwing with the rate of time flow is perfectly fine INSIDE THE ARENA. If the wizard teleports away to re-configure his spells, why should the monk have to just wait around. Any reasonable ruling would call it a retreat by the wizard and give the monk victory by default.

Also, I wasn't trying to think up arenas the were for the single purpose of dooming the wizard. Just pointing out that without terrain and such, you would be dooming the monk. Let me put it to you this way: If it was 200 feet away, no obstacles blocking initial line of sight (or effect) to each other, and the wizard were against an arrow demon class leveled up to ECL 20 instead of the monk, would he still be happy with the starting conditions? Any battle field that allows the longer ranged guy or the one with the "bigger guns" to pincussion the other guy in the first round seems unbalanced to me.