D&D General I Just Want To Teleport and Stab Things

[doctorbadwolf]

You know that Nightcrawler doesn't teleport, don't you?

Always a promising start.

What he does is more in align with something like Dimensional Shift, he steps through another dimension (Brimstone Dimension) the steps back out. In one of the shows (X-Men Evolution?) they had a series of episodes where this was highlighted as creatures from the hell dimension he uses hitched a ride out. Using that model, any use of the power/feat would always come with a chance of being followed, the longer the step the higher the chance.

Did i say i literally want to play nighrcrawler? No. I did not. i used him as an example.

Pedantry is never useful.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You know that Nightcrawler doesn't teleport, don't you? What he does is more in align with something like Dimensional Shift, he steps through another dimension (Brimstone Dimension) the steps back out. In one of the shows (X-Men Evolution?) they had a series of episodes where this was highlighted as creatures from the hell dimension he uses hitched a ride out. Using that model, any use of the power/feat would always come with a chance of being followed, the longer the step the higher the chance.

Ah, the "but Gandalf, the quintessential Wizard character that most fantasy fans know about, isn't a Wizard, but a Majar, so you shouldn't use them as inspiration for your Wizard class!" approach. It isn't always relevant...

 

[Pauln6]

Ah, the "but Gandalf, the quintessential Wizard character that most fantasy fans know about, isn't a Wizard, but a Majar, so you shouldn't use them as inspiration for your Wizard class!" approach. It isn't always relevant...

Merlin is largely a druid, so yeah, your mileage is going to vary.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Merlin is largely a druid, so yeah, your mileage is going to vary.

Oh, good point, another quintessential Wizard that isn't actually a Wizard, at least not like D&D has them.

One could argue that the D&D Wizard might have been misnamed.
Where do Fireball spells even come from? Is that part of the Vancian legacy? I don't think Tolkien or Wizards from folklore used that spell, yet it's kinda the quintessential fantasy game spell for wizards (or sorcerors)...

 

[Staffan]

Oh, good point, another quintessential Wizard that isn't actually a Wizard, at least not like D&D has them.

One could argue that the D&D Wizard might have been misnamed.
Where do Fireball spells even come from? Is that part of the Vancian legacy? I don't think Tolkien or Wizards from folklore used that spell, yet it's kinda the quintessential fantasy game spell for wizards (or sorcerors)...

I think it comes from Chainmail wizards basically being fantasy versions of artillery.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think it comes from Chainmail wizards basically being fantasy versions of artillery.

Even though I have heard about the roots of D&D, I never internalized them! Though I still thought - Fireballs are kinda like grenades, and was something for that to be some kind of wizardry-alchemy thing maybe for a lower-fantasy setting.

 

[JamesLFlowers]

Sad, when you answer someone's question on how to do something and all they can do is show that they are ungrateful and idiotic.

 

[Pauln6]

A lot of classic 1e wizard spells did come out of fantasy literature, fairy stories, Greek, Roman, Hindu, and Budhist legends, etc just with some arbitrary additions. You have your classic charms, weather control, telekinesis, shape changing, including Circe transforming sailors into swine. Isn't the shape change spell taken directly from that poem about the wizard and the witch, simulacrum from a Russian story, wishes from Arabian legends? I'm sure there were articles at the time.

What happened over time was that source material expanded exponentially, and designers realised that the old fairy stories didn't make for great game balance.

So the issue isn't whether you can do a telepirtibg stabby build, it's just can you do it whike remains balanced.

 

[mellored]

So the issue isn't whether you can do a telepirtibg stabby build, it's just can you do it whike remains balanced.

Sure.

It's equivalent to
The mobile feat + a little.
The wild heart barbarian + a little.
The shadow monk + a little.
The Cartographer + a little.

It's more than any other mobility feature, but not a huge amount more.

I.e. 2 levels worth.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Sure.

It's equivalent to
The mobile feat + a little.
The wild heart barbarian + a little.
The shadow monk + a little.
The Cartographer + a little.

It's more than any other mobility feature, but not a huge amount more.

I.e. 2 levels worth.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this characterization of teleportation in 5e. We really need to examine what currently exists in the game to determine the balance considerations of teleportation and how it has been viewed by the game's designers.

The earliest way to achieve a true teleport that does not have any limitations, to my knowledge, is Misty Step. You can achieve a limited number of misty step uses through a feat like Fey-Touched or by being a 3rd level spellcaster with access to the spell. Even with the earliest available uses of true teleportation, it is limited by the number of times per day it can be used and comes with the opportunity cost of not using other spells (assuming you are using spell slots). There are no other officially published ways to achieve what misty step can do without limit or condition, certainly not in tier 1 or 2 of the game. The designers created a race with a 50ft fly speed before they created any options with unlimited use teleport that's free of conditions. That alone should inform any homebrewer the degree to which teleportation's strengths are considered by the game's designers.

The mobile feat is not teleport-light. Mobile does not allow you to move through barriers. You cannot break out of confinement or a grapple. Unless you already have access to other forms of movement, you cannot easily move in three dimensions. Even in the context of this feat, you have to either make an attack or use dash to benefit from the feat.

It's not wild heart barbarian plus a little. Using dash and disengage does nothing if your speed is already reduced to zero. You can't escape grapples, you can't easily get out of prone, you can't ignore barriers or terrain, and you can't move in three dimensions without an additional movement type.

It's not cartographer plus a little. Cartographer requires at least 3 levels of investment for a form of teleportation that is extremely limited. Even at level 9, there are serious limits on your use of teleportation without using spell slots to power misty steps or other teleportation spells.

And even in the example of a shadow monk, you need a minimum of 6 levels worth of investment, and you still have to make sure the environment actually supports the necessary requirements to teleport. It is not an unconditional teleportation.

The only officially supported way I know of off the top of my head to achieve at will, unconditional teleportation is a level 17 wizard with misty step as one of their spell mastery spells.

I don't personally see a big issue with teleportation. But that's not the same as considering the game balance of teleportation. To consider game balance around a mechanic, you cannot ignore what the system already supports or how it is implemented. Teleport allows you to do things even flight cannot. Teleportation is not just a different type of movement. It is a means to ignore physical barriers. It allows you to move without using movement. It allows you to ignore grapples, opportunity attacks, manacles, jail cell bars, traps, lava pits, etc. You can disappear from sight into a hidden location in a way that makes it more difficult for enemies to find your new location. It eliminates the need for certain kinds of athletics or acrobatics checks altogether.

Maybe there should be more support around teleportation in D&D. But clearly, the designers seem to believe it is a powerful enough ability that it is gate-kept even harder than flight. Teleportation is always limited either in scope or number of uses. A table can play how they want, and homebrew how they want. But if we are going to have a conversation about teleporation in a way that is grounded in the game's mechanics, then it seems like we need to do so in a way that acknowledges the intent and concerns of the game's designers. Otherwise, we end up talking about each other's game tables rather than the game mechanics.