Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[tylermalan]

Alright, just to point it out right away, I remembered this because I was checking out this, which was about which classes were underpowered. Needless-to-say, I didn't get very far in reading it before I thought to talk about the following subject because I was astounded at how many people thought the monk was underpowered! It made me remember back to this original disagreement that was had among my first (and only significant) D&D group a couple of years ago, and I wanted to see what you all thought.

The argument was this: Which would win in a duel-type fight, a level 20 Monk or a level 20 Wizard, both with money to spend proportionate to their level (which was something like 700,000 gold according to the DMG, I think)?

I said the Wizard would win. A few others agreed with me, but most of my group, which included one guy in particular that didn't game with us that regularly and whom I wasn't too fond of, said the Monk would win.

My point was simple: the power of a level 20 Wizard spell-wise is just too devastating, and barring horrible rolls on the part of the Wizard and phenomenal rolls for the Monk, the Wizard would be almost unbeatable (not to mention magic items that got the Wizard's save DCs up to like 38, forcing a level 20 Monk to roll an 18+ to save or something). Granted, the Monk can have magic items too, but I didn't think it would matter really, as I was envisioning a Hasted Wizard with Time Stop and lots of "put these direct damage spells in place to all go off when time stop ends, so that even if he has incredible rolls, he will inevitably take tons of damage while I'm quite the distance away already", and since I would have multiple Time Stops memorized, I could do it multiple times.

The only real point that I can remember that this other guy had was some exploit with magical shurikens, something about being able to throw an infinite number of them per turn, in addition to them coming back to him, which I never really looked into. He seemed pretty sure about it though. But come on, its an exploit! Right?! This argument may have been had in 3E also, not 3.5, but I don't remember. He also basically said that a Monk's speed and abilities would allow him to get within melee range of a Wizard, and then it would be "over", due to the Wizard's low AC and HP.

The argument, which lasted weeks, ended in a kind of draw, where we both couldn't agree on conditions such as surprise, who would be able to go first, the environment, and primarily, at what distance they would start the duel at.

Oh and also, I ALWAYS wanted to actually HAVE the duel, you know, talk with our fists, so I made the Wizard and he made the Monk, but he would never do it, because he REALLY didn't want to be shown that he was wrong.

So what do you guys think? What would happen? Why do people think Monk's are overpowered, when I always thought they were one of the single best stand-alone classes?

And for the record, my Wizard's name was Fizdabulous, and he was totally dabulous.

 

[Storm Raven]

Alright, just to point it out right away, I remembered this because I was checking out this, which was about which classes were underpowered. Needless-to-say, I didn't get very far in reading it before I thought to talk about the following subject because I was astounded at how many people thought the monk was underpowered! It made me remember back to this original disagreement that was had among my first (and only significant) D&D group a couple of years ago, and I wanted to see what you all thought.

The argument was this: Which would win in a duel-type fight, a level 20 Monk or a level 20 Wizard, both with money to spend proportionate to their level (which was something like 700,000 gold according to the DMG, I think)?

I said the Wizard would win. A few others agreed with me, but most of my group, which included one guy in particular that didn't game with us that regularly and whom I wasn't too fond of, said the Monk would win.

In this sort of duel, it frequently comes down to who wins initiative. Once the wizard can leverage out a time stop and rain down death, he's probably going to come away the victor. If the monk can get up on the wizard first and grapple him, he may be able to defeat the wizard (barring various "get away from this" options a wizard mey have prepared).

My point was simple: the power of a level 20 Wizard spell-wise is just too devastating, and barring horrible rolls on the part of the Wizard and phenomenal rolls for the Monk, the Wizard would be almost unbeatable (not to mention magic items that got the Wizard's save DCs up to like 38, forcing a level 20 Monk to roll an 18+ to save or something). Granted, the Monk can have magic items too, but I didn't think it would matter really, as I was envisioning a Hasted Wizard with Time Stop and lots of "put these direct damage spells in place to all go off when time stop ends, so that even if he has incredible rolls, he will inevitably take tons of damage while I'm quite the distance away already", and since I would have multiple Time Stops memorized, I could do it multiple times.

It all comes down to what the wizard has memorized, and what items both has, which is why an abstract debate is of limited value. A poorly prepared wizard could be easily defeated by a well-prepared monk, and vice versa. In the middle, the wizard probably has an edge, but these things are so dependent on circumstance that a one-on-one duel is often a pointless endeavor.

The only real point that I can remember that this other guy had was some exploit with magical shurikens, something about being able to throw an infinite number of them per turn, in addition to them coming back to him, which I never really looked into. He seemed pretty sure about it though. But come on, its an exploit! Right?! This argument may have been had in 3E also, not 3.5, but I don't remember. He also basically said that a Monk's speed and abilities would allow him to get within melee range of a Wizard, and then it would be "over", due to the Wizard's low AC and HP.

Inifinite shuriken? Not possible - you are limited by your BAB as to how many attacks you can make. Speed? It may be useful, but the wizard's spell ranges by the time he is 20th level are tremendous. Even if the monk got close, the wizard could teleport or dimension door away, never mind all of the other options a wizard might have availabale depending on spell selection.

The argument, which lasted weeks, ended in a kind of draw, where we both couldn't agree on conditions such as surprise, who would be able to go first, the environment, and primarily, at what distance they would start the duel at.

I think this answers your question - circumstances are paramount.

 

[Deset Gled]

A battle of this type will probably come down to two rolls: initiative, and a save. Whoever wins initiative will have the biggest advantage. From there, all the monk needs is one successful stun, and all the wizard needs is one successful spell.

 

[Lamoni]

A battle of this type will probably come down to two rolls: initiative, and a save. Whoever wins initiative will have the biggest advantage. From there, all the monk needs is one successful stun, and all the wizard needs is one successful spell.

Exactly. I could see the monk easily winning before the Wizard got a turn. Take the Sun school feat from complete warrior, abundant step to the wizard, and stun them. Then follow up with a full round attack with another stun and lots of damage.

Now I know the wizard could do a lot on round 1 if they got the initiative, but since I have never played a wizard and haven't played a campaign past level 15 I have no idea what they would do. Anyone care to elaborate?

Also, if you are interested I could whip up a 20th level monk and actually have a duel... if someone else wanted to moderate. It might not belong in this same thread though, I don't know.

 

[Merlion]

Ok several things.

One, a Monk's ability to defeat a wizard in a duel or not doesnt neccesarily say much one way or the other about wether the Monk class is underpowered or not, for more reasons than I care to go into.


Now it is true, Monk is one of the few melee classes likely to really hold their own against a spellcaster, because of their saves (including Still Mind), evasion, spell resistance, and comparitively high Touch ACs.

Despite this as has been said timing and circumstances will have a lot to do with it. Especially things like who wins initiative, and what spells exactly the Wizard has handy, the terrain etc.


However, I do feel monks are a tad underpowered. It seems often to me that acting as a magekiller would be the only thing they'd be likely to truly excel at.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Exactly. I could see the monk easily winning before the Wizard got a turn. Take the Sun school feat from complete warrior, abundant step to the wizard, and stun them. Then follow up with a full round attack with another stun and lots of damage.

I think we should stick to the core rules. Otherwise the wizard gets to use chain contingency and do something nasty to the monk without even needing to win initiative.

In fact, what if the wizard used shapechange, a core spell, to make himself immune to crits (and therefore stunning) before the battle even started? Or what if he used moment of prescience, a spell with a 20 hour duration, to get a +20 bonus to AC against the monk's first attack - monks already have a hard time hitting anything, and now they completely miss the wizard. The wizard then takes a 5 foot step, dimension doors 700+ feet away, then casts fly. At this point, the encounter is pre-ordained.

IMO, a core wizard will win more than three quarters of the time. Any 20th-level PC wizard will have a decent Fort save, or they wouldn't have made it that far. They have a fair chance of making that save even if the monk gets initiative and attacks first.

 

[Thanee]

The wizard.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Anyone care to elaborate?

You have a Contingency up to teleport you a good distance away as soon as the monk gets/appears within 20 ft. or so.

Then you always have initiative.

The only way the monk can win this is, if the 'arena rules' are set up to vastly favor the monk. In any other case the monk will lose. 100% of the time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

The Wizard will almost certainly win.

However, if the Wizard underestimates the Monk, he may wind up losing the fight. Using anecdotal evidence: The evil demonologist PC was looking for a virgin sacrifice to Grazz't and he came across a girl with one of those poles with two buckets, one on either end. He was a 15th-level Wizard, and he didn't know it, but she was a 6th-level Monk. He needed her alive for the sacrifice and he thought she was a commoner from her dress, so he started with a weak spell, with no real buffs up, and she smacked him upside the head with the bucket-pole several times and managed to kill him. She was promptly sainted by the local church.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ok several things.

One, a Monk's ability to defeat a wizard in a duel or not doesnt neccesarily say much one way or the other about wether the Monk class is underpowered or not, for more reasons than I care to go into.


Now it is true, Monk is one of the few melee classes likely to really hold their own against a spellcaster, because of their saves (including Still Mind), evasion, spell resistance, and comparitively high Touch ACs.

Despite this as has been said timing and circumstances will have a lot to do with it. Especially things like who wins initiative, and what spells exactly the Wizard has handy, the terrain etc.

The main problem for the monk will be dealing with the mobility of the spellcaster. Most 20th level wizards will have dimension door, teleport and fly, and many will memorize all three. If the wizard teleports enough distance away that he can then use fly to get above the monk's abundant step ability (and the monk's caster level is only one-half his character level), the wizard can use various long range spells for which the monk will have no viable counter. Once out of the monk's retaliation range, the wizard can use his myriad of other spell options that avoid the monk's high saves, or don't need to deal with the monk's touch AC: time stop, ice storm, true strike followed by meteor storm. Or he could just pound out lots of damaging long range spells and wait for the monk to miss a save: delayed blast fireball, horrid wilting and so on.

The monk has to close with the wizard, and has to either grapple him or stun him. And he better hope the wizard doesn't have a contingency in place that will whoosh him away.