Wizards: Already Too Strong?

[Mattachine]

I would be happier if magic missile kept autohit, but was a Vancian spell that did more damage. I would prefer the at-will attack require a hit roll.

That would be easy to house rule, I suppose.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I am a little iffy about magic missile and shocking grasp being at will. There can be at-will cantrips that deal damage, but I thought damage wasn't supposed to scale like this and it shouldn't be automatic like this.

That being said, the wizard as a whole struck me as being a relatively well-written class and I doubt it's overpowered.

 

[eamon]

Can a rogue sneak attack with spells? A rogue could pick up shocking grasp with the same theme the pregen wizard has, right?

I imagine the ogre would notice when the rogue leaps out of the darkness and hits with a *sneak attack* shocking grasp.

It's not clear that a rogue could learn cantrips like that - I'm imagining he can't (wasn't possible in previous editions that easily, anyhow), but there's no way to know. It's not likely to be that attractive, however, since he's probably not int-focused, and why not just use a weapon?

In any case, if a rogue does somehow manage to get sneak attack to apply to a cantrip, I don't think it matters - flavorful for that particular PC, perhaps, but unlikely to matter much otherwise.

 

[eamon]

I am a little iffy about magic missile and shocking grasp being at will. There can be at-will cantrips that deal damage, but I thought damage wasn't supposed to scale like this and it shouldn't be automatic like this.

That being said, the wizard as a whole struck me as being a relatively well-written class and I doubt it's overpowered.

Since hit points seem to scale by level, it's likely that PC's at-will damage will too - whether that's by cantrips or weapons or whatnot.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Since hit points seem to scale by level, it's likely that PC's at-will damage will too - whether that's by cantrips or weapons or whatnot.

I can see that; I would just hope that the wizard's at-will abilities don't scale quickly enough to make his damage with them as good as a martial character. Sort of like reserve feats, which offer a reliable backup damage source but probably aren't your first option.

I don't have enough feel for these rules yet to see if MM is balanced or not.

 

[eamon]

I can see that; I would just hope that the wizard's at-will abilities don't scale quickly enough to make his damage with them as good as a martial character. Sort of like reserve feats, which offer a reliable backup damage source but probably aren't your first option.

I don't have enough feel for these rules yet to see if MM is balanced or not.

Since we have no idea how strong a fighters attack will be, there's no way to know. But given the extreme hitpoint inflation in the monsters, I'm pretty confident the fighter will have to be dealing much more damage as levels rise.

Also, consider that the sample fighter deals 14 damage on average (but might miss and deal only 3 or might crit) at level one; even 3 magic missiles (level 9) is just 10.5 damage which might be comparable DPR-wise. That sounds to me like the difference is pretty large.

And of course, all of the leveling mechanics obviously aren't done yet...

 

[KesselZero]

Hmm, thanks for all the thoughtful responses.

I'm still concerned about Shocking Grasp. I know there's disagreement over whether the lack of stickiness makes this stronger or weaker but my sense is that if the DM wants to pile monsters on the wizard he's going to do it, and if he's feeling generous (or thinks it more realistic for monsters to stay in combat with the big armored dudes who are hitting them hard) he's not going to do it. I'm not sure the wizard being within 15 feet rather than 30 or something like that is going to change that.

We haven't heard much about Ray of Frost. There's a playtest report on the forum where the poster says that his wizard just spammed RoF while the rest of the party picked off the bad guy from a safe distance with ranged attacks. (I believe this was against the ogre.) The OP says that his group agreed that they would just use this tactic against any single enemy. And why not? You can argue that it's just good tactics but as written, it will work against any lone foe all the time unless the foe has a strong ranged attack or some way of ignoring the freeze. And it sounds not very fun, to boot. Yes, the wizard has a miss chance but that means the party will take one round of attacks before they back off (easy to do because of no OAs) and do it again. Again, haven't played yet and will this afternoon, but right now I'm thinking RoF should be a level 1 spell with a little damage tacked on.

Light still bothers me a bit. The fact that you can only have one casting going at a time is a good thing, and I do recognize that many groups don't want to keep track of torches anyway, but it really seems like as long as you keep the party together it eliminates the need for torches altogether. Given that treasure seems like it'll be much more limited in 5e, and time/money used as more of a method of balancing (cf. the armor list and the ritual rules) this still feels like a bit much.

Not sure about Detect Magic. Depends how the DM plays it, I guess. It needs clarification.

 

[mcintma]

Spamming at-wills does not feel very 'classic D&D' to me. I'm OK with PF at-wills, because in that system cantrips remain very much minor.

That fact that 5e wizards are relying heavily on cantrips instead of 'real' spells seems off to me.

Also, these 5e cantrips might scare the bar-room bullies at 1st-3rd, but heaven help the mid-hi lvl wiz if he's still having to rely on cantrips (because his 'real' spells have been nerfed and/or he has too few).

The title of this thread just makes me think the LF/QW folks won't be happy, pretty much ever. To me, this 5e wiz looks like a clear victory for them

 

[DMKastmaria]

Hmm, thanks for all the thoughtful responses.

I'm still concerned about Shocking Grasp. I know there's disagreement over whether the lack of stickiness makes this stronger or weaker but my sense is that if the DM wants to pile monsters on the wizard he's going to do it, and if he's feeling generous (or thinks it more realistic for monsters to stay in combat with the big armored dudes who are hitting them hard) he's not going to do it. I'm not sure the wizard being within 15 feet rather than 30 or something like that is going to change that.

It's kinda unrealistic to ignore the dwarf with the big Axe, furiously chopping you to pieces.

 

[eamon]

I'm still concerned about Shocking Grasp. I know there's disagreement over whether the lack of stickiness makes this stronger or weaker but my sense is that if the DM wants to pile monsters on the wizard he's going to do it, and if he's feeling generous (or thinks it more realistic for monsters to stay in combat with the big armored dudes who are hitting them hard) he's not going to do it. I'm not sure the wizard being within 15 feet rather than 30 or something like that is going to change that.

What's your concern? Shocking grasp to me looks like nothing more than a tweaked melee attack, which regardless of DM-ing and monster smartness does not strike me as concerningly powerful for a fragile, lightly armored character. I mean, it sounds like a rather weak choice, honestly.

We haven't heard much about Ray of Frost. There's a playtest report on the forum where the poster says that his wizard just spammed RoF while the rest of the party picked off the bad guy from a safe distance with ranged attacks. (I believe this was against the ogre.) The OP says that his group agreed that they would just use this tactic against any single enemy. And why not? You can argue that it's just good tactics but as written, it will work against any lone foe all the time unless the foe has a strong ranged attack or some way of ignoring the freeze. And it sounds not very fun, to boot. Yes, the wizard has a miss chance but that means the party will take one round of attacks before they back off (easy to do because of no OAs) and do it again. Again, haven't played yet and will this afternoon, but right now I'm thinking RoF should be a level 1 spell with a little damage tacked on.

Finally . I think this is a much more worrying cantrip! Nevertheless; I think the fact that's effective against a lone opponent says more about lone opponents than about the cantrip. This kind of thing has been a problem... forever. Certainly in 3.5, and solo's have had issues since day 1 in 4e. It's not just wizards; it's just so extremely easy to find some ability intended to be used against one opponent of many in a normal combat that happens to seriously hamper one opponent even if there's only one. For that matter, even plain improvisation tends to be much more lethal against a solo.

If a solo must work alone, and challenge a party alone, he'll need extraordinary abilities. Note that you don't need much of anything fancy to overpower many solos - a bunch of caltrops and a bow might even be enough.

Solos should be exceptional - both in terms of rarity, and in terms of ability. The ogre doesn't cut it.

Light still bothers me a bit. The fact that you can only have one casting going at a time is a good thing, and I do recognize that many groups don't want to keep track of torches anyway, but it really seems like as long as you keep the party together it eliminates the need for torches altogether. Given that treasure seems like it'll be much more limited in 5e, and time/money used as more of a method of balancing (cf. the armor list and the ritual rules) this still feels like a bit much.

Yeah, light bothers me too. But don't get your hopes up, I'm willing to be it won't be fixed. Easily accessible light is just really traditional. Light, everburning torches, magically glowing weapons, Continual Flame, easy access to darkvision... both 4e and 3e have several of these in their repertoires. Even before second level comes around any party has the funds to constantly have several sources of light. I don't think it's fun, but I also don't expect this kind of thing to change. Not to mention that torches are light and cheap... For 32gp, the playtests dwarven fighter could buy and carry 640 of them and still move at full speed assuming he's carrying exclusively that - though that might be somewhat absurd.[/quote]

Not sure about Detect Magic. Depends how the DM plays it, I guess. It needs clarification.

As mentioned, this requires line of effect and as such is fairly clear. It's unlikely to be an issue; it's much less powerful than a plain arcana check in 4e or the 3e detect magic cantrip.