Wizards and ECL sux

[Simulacrum]

Hmm I think playing mosters is fine with SOME of them.

playing spellcasters is not a good idea with high level ECL creatures.
The Rakshasa is an expetion wich works out good, but still you aint going to be very powerful as caster, but hey you have got SR 28 or something like that.....

The thing I have a big gripe about are the OVERblown ECLS some creaturs have like the Doppelganger. Can you believe they made the Doppelganger LA 4, with 4 levels of Monstous humanoid?
Thats insane, espially when you compare them with other LA/ECL 4 creatures/templates.

A good solution would be to say that certain monster that are very good at magic should get at least half their hit die or their ecl/la as additional spellcaster levels.

Lets take the Ogre mage for example. He is something like LA 7 and has 5 hit die or so wich make him ECL 12.
As Fighters Ogre magi will do pretty good due to their great strenght and constitution, even tho they lack BAb they can do have a good deal of extraordenary attackforms and defenses (regeneration)
But as spellcaster they would suck the big one.
Why not say that those creatures get a SCAB (spellcaster class advancement bonus) equal to half their LA or HD (or both)?

This needed to be tested, but I think it would work out good while ruling it over my ruleslawyer/balance thumb.

 

[Thanee]

I guess the point is: adding class levels to monsters to make them tougher? It ain't easy. Some of those class levels are just "XP freebies", if you ask me.

Ah, that's right, of course. Some monster/class combinations just don't work very well.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

All of the Level Adjustments are way too high.

Every single one of them. For Wizards, for Fighters, for everyone.

Let's consider how Level Adjustment is calculated:

* We start with the base Hit Dice of the creature, using just its hit points, saves, skill points, and BAB (remember that none of the racial hit dice, even Dragon hit dice, are as good as any character class). That's the base level of the creature for some reason.

* Now we take all of their abilities, and assign them an arbitrary level adjustment based upon how good those abilities are without reference to the hit dice. That will be the Level Adjustment.
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So the ECL is the hit dice without abilities plus the abilities.

Regular classes get hit dice and abilities every level (except the Fighter - but they are underpowered too).

So let's consider the "ECL" of a normal fifth level character, say a 5th level human Rogue or human Wizard:

A fifth level human wizard has 5 hit dice, so he has a base level of five. Then he casts spells as a 5th level wizard, and has 3 bonus feats and 8 extra skill points. That's a Level Adjustment of +4 right there. So the 5th level human wizard has an ECL of 9.

A fifth level human Rogue has 5 hit dice, so she has a base level of five. Then she has 3 sneak attack dice, the traps ability, evasion, a bonus feat, 8 extra skill points, and Uncanny Dodge. That's a Level Adjustment of +3. So the 5th level human Rogue has an ECL of 8.

That's the math you are going up against when you play an ECL race. You pay for everything twice, and you end up being about half again as high level as can actually be justified.

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And it gets worse. Not only are you staring with about 1/3 of your total levels in the hole - your monster abilities do not improve with level. When a 6th level Human Wizard goes up to 7th level, they still have their Suggestion, but now they also have Charm Monster. When a monster with Suggestion gains a level, they don't get Charm Monster.

There are classes that raise your attack bonus, your sneak attacking, your caster levels. But there's nothing you can do to stack up your monstrous spell-like abilities into more better spell-like abilities. If you have suggestion, and you want Charm Monster, you have to start over from the beginning and take 7 levels of wizard.

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So yes. ECL creatures suck. They pay too much for what they have now, and there's no classes they can take to allow them to keep up with normal character progression.

Your only chance is to find an abusive combo. You still won't be any good, but if your combo is abusive enough you won't care.

For example, if you play with the transformation rituals from Savage Species, you can keep transforming yourself into a baby creature and keep buying stackable hit dice for 1000 XP a piece forever.

Short of essentially cheating, however, you've got no hope.

-Frank

 

[Pax]

Well, Sylph (from MM2) is a very good choice for a sorceror.

Nixie (from the revised MM1 and the SRD) is also a good choice for Sorcerors; +3 LA, no innate HD, and a +8 modifier to Charisma. Not to mention a nice DR of 5/cold iron. Given my personal rule about "no more than half your ECL eaten up by LA", if we look at, say, an ECL7 character, that's Sorceror(4). Granted, two full spell levels behind compared to the Wizard at that point, but, a significant number of lower-level spells per day, and a relatively easily attainable Charisma of 26-27 (start with a 17 or 18, add one at your 4th HD), unbuffed. Throw a, say, +4 cloak on top of that, and you have a 30-31 Charisma; +10 spell DCs ... not shabby, not at all.

At top levels, Sorceror(17) to Wizard(20); granted you lose out on 9th level spells, but only JUST. Add 3 more to the charisma for levelling, a +5 Tome of Leadership, and up the cloak to +6 ... and that's a 40-ish Charisma. +15 spell DCs before feats and possible Prestige Class abilities, plenty of 7th and 8th level spells to get by on ... and still that (small) DR of 5/cold iron, which a PC should encounter infrequently at best ... greatly improving the survivability of the character.

 

[jabberwocky]

Well, I'm not convinced that ECL races are always bad. Pixie, Sylph, Nixie, Immoth, Arcanaloth, Astral Deva, Firbolg, Rakshasa, Centaur, Thri-Keen, Succubus, Minotaur...These all seem to me to be great ECL races, and could make very viable characters (granted, very high level in some cases, but still). Suboptimal class choices will make any of these less effective characters, because their ecl is calculated against the optimal choice. And I would disagree that every monster type is worse than equivalent class levels - outsider and dragon come to mind.
And of course for NPCS, it's not so bad on the free exp problem, at least on the high level end of things - for example, a Frost Giant Wizard 14 is a CR 16 monster, and I would say thats a little low if anything.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Well, a 14th level dwarven wizard and six frost giants is also an EL 16 encounter, so I don't see the big dealio.

But yeah, let's look at that Succubus. What would you say is the "optimal" character class for her?

Her primary ability is to cast charm monster and polymorph (self only) whenever she wants. That's really powerful - until you get high enough level that the Wizard is throwing a couple of mass charms or polymorph any objects in a day. But despite the fact that she's basically a super-juiced 8th level enchanter with a bunch of Pearls of Power to start out - no class is going to allow her access to 5th level spells in less than 9 levels.

As soon as the wizard gets access to 8th level spells, she's completely obsolete until she gets 8th level spells of her own - and that's going to happen in only 3 levels.

So she has 3 character levels to get access to the 8th level spells needed to justify her existence or she's obsolete at that point.

What is she supposed to do? Her rank maximum is 9, she doesn't qualify for crazy stuff like Ur Priest. And even if she did, it's still not going to her the hook-up on 8th level spells in 3 levels.

-Frank

 

[Nail]

But yeah, let's look at that Succubus. What would you say is the "optimal" character class for her?

Despite your prose, I absolutely agree with you. ECL doesn't quite make the grade, somehow. I suspect that in part, that's because of the "PC wealth" that is also factored in.

 

[jabberwocky]

But yeah, let's look at that Succubus. What would you say is the "optimal" character class for her?
-Frank

Assassin!
With Charm Monster/polymorph self/greater teleport all at will, not even counting the energy drain uses, she would make a very nasty assassin. Or choose X prestige class from a splatbook that you like better. Spellcasting progression classes are not optimal for a succubus, but anything roguelike is. Or even Paladin, if you can swing the alignment, a +16 Cha can make up for a lot of BAB when using divine shield, for example.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Assassin!

You are kidding, right?

13th level character, and she has a BAB of a Wizard (+6). Now you want her to stab people with her total of 3 combat feats, 1 sneak attack die, and do what?

Or maybe you want her to use her "death attack". She's 13th level and it has the same DC as a 1st level spell - so I'm sure that wil go over great.


While I agree that she is pretty decent at delivering coup de grace attacks on people right out of the box, I fail to see how levels of Assassin make her especially better at doing that. It's sneak attack, but she start twelve levels behind the curve. You'd be better off just being a 13th level Rogue and taking one of your 2 extra feats from being higher level and getting Leadership to have an 11th level Wizard cohort to jack you up on improved invisibility, fly, and nondetection.

-Frank

 

[jabberwocky]

You are kidding, right?

-Frank

Well, no actually. A succubus doesn't make a good combat monster, but she would be amazingly good at seducing and killing a lone target. This is what assassins do. With ethereal jaunt, she has good information gathering/concealment options, greater teleport lets her in and out of places, and shes not much behind in skills than a human character of the same ECL. Her max ranks may be lower, but the bonuses to Int and Cha make up for a lot of that as do the racial bonuses to spot and listen. Defensively, shes very well off, with excellent natural armor, and immunities or resistances to everything but sonic. And she could pretty easily have a cha of 40 (base 18+16 racial+6 enhancement), which boosts the DCs of all her spelllike abilities. Charm Monster DC 29, Energy Drain DC 28 (or 30 if you want to take ability focus). And the higher you start, the better it is. A 12 HD succubus is not at all far off from an 18th level rogue type, except for sneak attack. I'll grant that Assassin is not actually optimal for a succubus, even though they would make great assassins. Blackguard would prob be better, so that they can gain that massive Cha save bonus, and try for the divine feats that use cha to get more huge bonuses. Succubus is probably one of the weaker ECL races I mentioned, but I can still see one making a decent, effective character.