Wizards and ECL sux

[Thanee]

Yes, all pure spellcasters (Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid mainly) work best if you have full character level = caster level.

That's why they are not so well-suited for multiclassing and that's also why monstrous races with uber ECL will struggle to become decent spellcasters. But they have other qualities!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

No, if you want a race with a starting high ECL that's good for spellcasters, take some spellcasting race.

.....

While they still lose a lot of caster levels, they make up for it with their racial bonuses.

Sometimes. Actually, it can be quite frustrating, especially when comparing one ECL PC to another. They may have the same ECL, but one may suck, while the other's awesome.

Take Ogre Mage, as an example. A classic monster that sucks to play as a character. It almost looks like the ECL is too high, some how.

Very frustrating.

 

[Thanee]

Monsters are not meant to be PCs.

Yes, there are rules to use them, but they will always be worse than straight PHB race/class combinations (except maybe as fighters, where the monster levels work pretty much the same as the class levels).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Greybar]

Are we talking about the "invisible at will" Ogre Magi? [grins and rubs hands together]

Yes, you pick up a lot of commitment from an unusual race. See James Wyatt's page on testing Savage Species[/ul]. Beware getting a high ECL but low Hit Dice, or that Blasphemy spell tossed by the half-fiend villain may kill you on the spot!

It will be quite a challenge, not a freebie. I think that people see the high stats they could get and such they jump all over it without seeing the consequences. Then reality is a rude surprise.

john

 

[Li Shenron]

Just wondering... would it be possible to have a level adjustment <0 ?

For example, a creature with (let's say) 3HD but with a net penalty to some ability scores, and no other bonus, should be equivalent to less than 3 character levels.

 

[Winternight]

You see it wrong.

That`s why I posted it here.

A nymph casts as a Druid 7. They have 6HD + LA+7, so your Nymph Druid 1 would be ECL 14, and would cast as a Druid 8.
A rakshasa casts as Sorcerer 7. 7HD + LA+7 = ECL 14, so a Rakshasa Sor 1 is ECL 15 and casts as sorcerer 8.
Cuatl: Cast as Sor9, 9hd+7 -> Cuatl Sor1 = ECL 17, cast as Sor 10

As a fighter it works out to have a Race template.
As a sorcerer and druid you found some, which are decent - which I did miss. Thanx for them. Are there some more? Just a listing without the right stats.
But look at the nymph/druid1 as an example:
She would be with a group of level 14 characters, she cast as a druid 8
she will have about 35-40 hitpoints.
She and her group may meet a marut (CR15) he is immune to all her special abilites, and will kill her witn one full attack.
I still think it is not worth, but she is decent at least.

But there is still no Wizard race out there (except for xxx_elves +2int - 2con).
Am I right?

 

[Darklone]

Just wondering... would it be possible to have a level adjustment <0 ?

For example, a creature with (let's say) 3HD but with a net penalty to some ability scores, and no other bonus, should be equivalent to less than 3 character levels.

Kobolds should have that now.

 

[jabberwocky]

But there is still no Wizard race out there (except for xxx_elves +2int - 2con).
Am I right?

well, the trouble with finding a wizard ecl race is that almost no monsters have innate wizard spellcasting - theyre all sorcerors.
But there are some very decent sorceror ones out there - as I mentioned before the sylph is great, arcanaloth is good (la +7, casts as sorceror 12, 12 outsider hd, piles of special abilities - including shapechange! at will) immoth (LA +6, 10 elemental HD, casts as sorceror 12, more piles of special abilities, but the ice runes ability probably needs some clarification - as written it essentially would allow a prepared immoth to cast all his spells as free actions)
These are all from the MM2.

 

[Nail]

Monsters are not meant to be PCs.

Right.

But see.....I wasn't going to use them as PCs........

I guess the point is: adding class levels to monsters to make them tougher? It ain't easy. Some of those class levels are just "XP freebies", if you ask me.

"Oh no! That Ogre Mage has 2 levels of sorcerer! Now he's CR 10, or ECL 14! The level 8 PCs are toast!"

Not.

 

[Cyraneth]

The ECL system is inherently broken.

I have to agree to jgsugden here. But that is because the ECL system assumes that everyone optimizes their characters/monsters in whatever way is possible. A drow Commoner10/Wizard1/Cleric1/Rogue1/Bard1/Sorcerer1/Psion1/Druid1/Psychic Warrior1 should be ECL 20, but isn't going to be much of an asset to a 20th-level party. And CR 18, but again, no reason to fear him or his magic missiles or animal companion.

- Cyraneth