Wizards, Armour and the Collective Consciousness

If the DM can't set the parameters of the game in a way which means that a particular player is likely to enjoy the game [with everyone at the table bearing their share of responsibility for fun during the actual game], the DM's wasting that player's time and can't expect him to play except out of pure sociability. That doesn't mean it's the player's fault or the DM's fault - it could be either and it's usually both. Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that I don't enjoy OGB's D&D 3.5 games, although I don't really feel like playing D&D 3.5 at the moment, full stop. Call it 3.5 fatigue. I'm reasonably happy playing AD&D 1st edition (different DM).
 

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If the DM can't set the parameters of the game in a way which means that a particular player is likely to enjoy the game [with everyone at the table bearing their share of responsibility for fun during the actual game], the DM's wasting that player's time and can't expect him to play except out of pure sociability.


That's absolutely true. If you cannot enjoy a game with the parameters given, you should not be playing in that game.

That doesn't mean that you cannot play in a different game with the same folks, or do different things together.

What it does mean, though, is that this thread comes off as an attempt to "peer-pressure" strongarm the DM into running the game your way -- I could pull some quotes, if you like -- and that is something that I look at with a rather dim view.



RC
 

Fair enough - but that wasn't the original intention of the thread, which was just to collect examples of literature references for armoured wizards. OGB didn't even have a forum presence before this thread - he created his ID to respond to this thread in particular. So, not really "peer pressure" - I was just looking for examples of literature references to use as ammo. Job done!
 

OGB didn't even have a forum presence before this thread - he created his ID to respond to this thread in particular. So, not really "peer pressure"

Hrm. I would then ask, if not really "peer pressure", how did OGB learn of this thread in order to respond? This seems disingenious at best.

I was just looking for examples of literature references to use as ammo. Job done!

In that case, were I OGB, I would point out that film versions of stories are not "literature references", so it is irrelevant whether or not Thulsa Doom has armour in the Conan movie. Moreover, the immediate cry of "Elric" -- who was intended to be a counter-stereotype character -- might be as useful to OGB as it is to you.

Of course, modern literature can supply you with examples of just about anything you seek. The classics of the genre -- those which have stood the test of time -- are probably more important in OGB's eyes. I believe there is a wizard in Orlando Furioso who wears armour.


RC
 

Obviously I gave him the link to the thread, to provide him with the information to back up my claims. But I don't think of it as peer pressure because he was not, at that time, known even by a nickname to anyone on here. I was relying on you all as a source of info, not as a source of moral pressure, if that makes sense. So, not disingenuous, although maybe we're approaching this from very different viewpoints (you and I).

Orlando furioso?
 

Orlando furioso?



Orlando Furioso - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Atlantes (Sorcerer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) (Doesn't mention armour, but if memory serves, he wears it.)

Which reminds me that there is a spellcasting (evil) knight in armour in one of the William Morris novels; I think it is The Wood Beyond the World (The Wood Beyond the World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), which is a novel that I recommend for interesting D&D ideas.

EDIT: I'm wrong; it is The Water of the Wondrous Isles (The Water of the Wondrous Isles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), also worth reading for D&D ideas......perhaps more so than The Wood Beyond the World.



RC
 
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Tolkein:
Morgroth, Feanor, Finrod Felagund, the witch king of angmar/lord of the ringwraiths, the mouth of Sauron, Denethor (steward of Gondor), and Elrond appear to have worn armor
Gandalf did not, but his statement that no weapon the fellowship possessed could harm him after his return indicates that he no longer needed any. (And also note that, of the fellowship, only Gimli and Boromir wore armor on their travels which and every scene prior to Gandalf's transformation, showed him as a traveler rather than actually going to war).
Sauron actually did not wear armor by my reading, but again, this is a special case. In the Silmarillion, he fought as a shapeshifter, and is not described as fighting again until after his body was destroyed at Numenor and his spirit returned to a second body made of iron.
Galadriel and Saruman likewise did not wear armor, but neither of them were ever described fighting in a battle.

Arthurian legend:
The green knight wore plenty of armor when he met Sir Gawain
Sir Gawain and King Lot and many other knights had abilities that might well be described as fairy magic. Indeed, the only magic using characters that were not unambiguously depicted in armor are Merlin (who was generally an advisor rather than a warrior) and Morgana la fey (who did not fight directly either).

Elric and Thulsa Doom are also good examples of spellcasters who wore armor. Likewise in Song of Fire and Ice, the priest of the red god and the priests of the drowned god wear armor and fight much like anyone else and are no less magicians for doing so. (I would also argue that there does not appear to be any clear distinction between arcane and divine magic in this series either). In the same way, the various fey depicted in Tad Williams' books (Shadowmarch, Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, et al) seem to be perfectly comfortable working their magic in armor and those among them who are the most skilled at magic are generally those who are the most heavily armed and armored and the most to be feared physically as well. Likewise even if Thomas Covenant does not wear armor in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Donaldson depicts the first high lord who crafted the rod of law is depicted wearing armor in Fatal Revenant.

Now, one might argue that those are all fighter/magic users (or bards in the case of Finrod Felagund) and that they don't count. But that is really picking your mages to fit the image of the cowled and robed advisor or the seductive enchantress who manipulates affairs from behind the scenes. Nothing in the Elric novel I read seemed to indicate that he is the any less of a magician than the other melinbournian magicians in the world. He simply wears armor and also knows how to fight with a sword (which just happens to drink souls). In the lord of the rings, the witch king of Angmar and the Mouth of Saruon were depicted as among the mightiest of mortal sorcerers and while Denethor's magic (other than his use of the palantir) is not explicitly depicted, he is not someone to be trifled with either. Nothing indicates that there is any difference between those magicians who wore armor and those who didn't except that those who did not wear armor were not generally in battles. (Denethor in fact, put on his armor when he should have been in battle, but instead of facing his fate like Theoden, he despaired and burned himself).

All of this indicates that, fantasy literature often does depict wizards wearing armor, and when it does not, it is usually because those characters have no reason to wear armor because they are not exposed to physical combat or their power is such that they have nothing to fear even without armor.
 

If the DM can't set the parameters of the game in a way which means that a particular player is likely to enjoy the game [with everyone at the table bearing their share of responsibility for fun during the actual game], the DM's wasting that player's time and can't expect him to play except out of pure sociability.

Exactly. Which is why you should bow out of the game now, instead of whining at the GM about his choices. Better to leave now than have you at the table whining.

That said, the witches in the "Witch World" series by Andre Norton could use magic in armor. In fact, they used the best mail they could get when going into battle.
 

Yes. DMs asking for and considering the players’ preferences are good. Players volunteering their opinions are good. This thread with its various examples is good.

Not wanting wizards to wear armor is a perfectly reasonable choice by the DM. No reasonable player—IMHO—is going to be unable to enjoy the campaign because of that stricture.
 

Exactly. Which is why you should bow out of the game now, instead of whining at the GM about his choices. Better to leave now than have you at the table whining.

That said, the witches in the "Witch World" series by Andre Norton could use magic in armor. In fact, they used the best mail they could get when going into battle.

The game hasn't even started yet, but basically if I don't play, it's possible that it may not run at all (in a group of 5, 2 players are somewhat irregular attenders). And that would probably mean that OGB would NOT be the GM - we would be playing something different (currently AD&D 1st edition with a different DM). As I say, it's not anyone's birthright to be the GM. So, we live in a world of compromises.

Your mention of Andre Norton is uncanny in this context! (in-joke, sorry)
 

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