Wizards in a rough patch?

[MerricB]

again, the Warlock is a great example, in my opinion.

Have fun with Magic of Incarnum, then.

Cheers!

 

[Ranger REG]

Yeah. If the rumors are true (and WotC is going back to publishing adventures) then that'll be a good thing, but--settings. Yeah.

Sure. They can do what TSR does and bankrupt themselves.

I recommend you not getting a business degree.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Have fun with Magic of Incarnum, then.

Cheers!

I'll try, but y'know what? I've never been all that much of a fan of new magic systems or the like. I don't dislike them, not at all, but I've been waiting for something like Iron Heroes for a long time, something that actually tried to do something innovative with the fighter-type classes. Still, I'll keep my eye out for it.

 

[Nightfall]

Both systems share a need for the DM to spend time detailing the item and the powers it bestows, as well as the pace at which they are achieved.

Which for me says more about DM's and player's styles than the systems. I will say though at least with Scions, you don't lose out as badly as you do for WoL stuff when it comes to spellcasting classes. The penalties I'm sure a balancing factor but again, I honestly believe that a DM can balance that need with XP and gold costs. Short of that, I am for loss HP. (It's not like for fighters and other above d6 HD classes, they can't afford it), or Ability score loss. (For wizards anyway. I mean seriously, if you want a powerful staff, sacrifice some STR, or some Dex. Hell even Char. That would work better) But Attack Rolls and Saves?! I mean I understand it, and for my githzerai paladin I MIGHT (I stress that highly), MIGHT consider it. But I'd much prefer using Scion feats or even do Bonding.

I will state I enjoy Warlocks and Incarum has some possiblities, but more for the darker aspects, like Necrocarum and other undead like things.

 

[Toben the Many]

Wizards has run into the same problem that all RPG companies run into...

Any game company can only release so many sourcebooks until it runs out of steam.
You can release a Player's Guide, Game Master's Guide, World Setting, and few upgrade books (Player's Options or GM Options).

But once you've put those out...you're technically done. There's nothing else that the players or GMs have to buy.

And you can't sit back and continue to sell your baseline materials, because you're selling to a niche market. So in order to turn a profiit, you have to constantly produce more new material.

So once you've covered the basics, what do you do? Well, from what I've seen...the only solution is to come out with a new edition of your game. The key is putting out a new edition at the right time. Put it out to early, and the players balk and leave like rats from a sinking ship. Put it out too late and your company has already folded.

The new edition of Shadowrun is probably coming out at just the right time. If it's any good, it should do well.

 

[Silveras]

Thank you very much for the detailed and very informative breakdown . I've got the "Swords and Staves" book (and also UA), therefore I know the "Artifacts" method. The prestige class method nails the character pretty much down to the item for 10 levels, which is balanced but not especially elegant. But paying hitpoint or BAB costs for an item used by a fighter seems a bit odd to me.

I left out that the items in Weapons of Legacy, like the Scion classes, have "requirements" their wielders must meet.

The big difference is flexibility, I think. The penalties paid for the use of the Weapons of Legacy items are the same as taking levels in a PrC that does not fully suit your archetype. There are many penalties defined: Attack, Saves, Skill, Caster Level, Spell slot, and Hit Points. No item makes use of all of them, though. Most use 2 or 3, and the penalties are spread out over the levels the powers are gained. If you CANNOT pay the penalty "costs", you do not get the powers until you can. However, these "penalties" are not much different than taking levels in a specialty PrC that does not offer the same basic advancement as your core class. An item that assesses Attackm, Save, and Hit Point penalties is like a Fighter taking levels in a PrC that only gives d8 hp, a Poor instead of a Good save, and a reduced Attack progression.

What is different is that, in the PrC method, you pay "invisible" costs as you go along. You just don't get the skill points, hit points, or whatever (and, for the record, I am aware that the Scion classes in the Swords of our Fathers release actually give full Attack, hp, and Skill values to the appropriate archetypes); with the WoL model, you can gain the powers retroactively, and pay the costs retroactively, whenever the opportunity arises (i.e., if you don't find a Legacy weapon until you are 18th level, you are not restricted to the lowest levels of ability of the items). This makes the Weapon of Legacy model easier to add to an existing campaign.

Also, with the Weapons of Legacy model, you can Renounce the Legacy. By reversing the ritual you can "unbond" from the weapon. You lose access to its powers, but you also "get back" all the costs from the "penalties".

To return this to the original thread's point, I think this illustrates some creative thinking on the part of the Developers/Designers at Wizards. Basically, they found a way to make a similar mechanic more flexible for inclusion "right now" in existing games. Dropping the Scion system into a campaign would likely mean "New campaign" or "new characters", or at least "character re-writes" to make use of it. Weapons of Legacy, for all that the penalties seem daunting, is easier to make "drop into" an existing campaign.

 

[Nightfall]

Silveras,

Perhaps but if you compare WoL with what the DMG II offers, for levelling (at least weapons) the bonding rituals work just fine if you want something right now. Admittedly you won't get the extras but the chances of you getting your +1 weapon to a +5 keen holy weapon aren't too shabby either.

In any event WoL has some ideas but I'm not sure I 100% agree with using it, existing campaign or not.

 

[Turjan]

Also, with the Weapons of Legacy model, you can Renounce the Legacy. By reversing the ritual you can "unbond" from the weapon. You lose access to its powers, but you also "get back" all the costs from the "penalties".

Actually, you can do something similar with the scion classes. If you somehow lose the item and don't want it back, you can swap all scion class levels against base class levels of the class where you originally came from. Of course, you cannot retroactively take some prestige class levels.

 

[Nightfall]

But if you level you could, in theory, take one level in a Pr-class IF you qualify.

 

[tetsujin28]

Sure. They can do what TSR does and bankrupt themselves.

I recommend you not getting a business degree.

WotC operates on a different business model than TSR. And they're already venturing into what was 3rd-party territory. They really don't have much to offer, anymore, other than those great settings that people remember from 2e. Eberron has proven that settings can be a success for WotC. The main thing is to only publish a 'core' setting book, and see how it flies. If it's successful, then publish more stuff. Otherwise, the investment was pretty slim.

Publish one core book each for Dark Sun, Birthright, Planescape, and Spelljammer. Not too big a problem.