Wizards in a rough patch?

[Vocenoctum]

Silveras,

Perhaps but if you compare WoL with what the DMG II offers, for levelling (at least weapons) the bonding rituals work just fine if you want something right now. Admittedly you won't get the extras but the chances of you getting your +1 weapon to a +5 keen holy weapon aren't too shabby either.

In any event WoL has some ideas but I'm not sure I 100% agree with using it, existing campaign or not.

I think the costs of WoL are too high, but also a bit badly arranged too.
Taking a -1 penalty to attacks in order to make your sword +1, is just... wierd.

Other systems though, like Ancestral Relic/ OA Samurai (straight Gold cost), and the DMG2 system, tend to be too bland and slow for me.

Meanwhile, Kensai is too fast by far, and also a bit bland.
Scions from UA just did nothing for me. Building up a complete PrC for any given item was just bleh.

I think WoL does it best, including different powers than what a weapon normally gets. It's just the Costs that need fixing.

 

[Nightfall]

Well my advice then just use Temp ability score damage then. HP same too. But only use those on characters that have high HP. But I do think if you have a character willing to make a sacrifice, permanent ability loss isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean if you've got a Wizard that doesn't melee or a Fighter that's willing to sacrifice Int/Cha, then that to me says "Balance."

 

[Silveras]

Well my advice then just use Temp ability score damage then. HP same too. But only use those on characters that have high HP. But I do think if you have a character willing to make a sacrifice, permanent ability loss isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean if you've got a Wizard that doesn't melee or a Fighter that's willing to sacrifice Int/Cha, then that to me says "Balance."

A penalty to something you don't intend to use anyway is NOT a penalty.

That was the flaw in many 2nd Ed kits... "I get a +2 to my attacks, but I have to spend 1 day a month away from the party doing community service. SWEET ! My DM NEVER plays out those things, so I'll take the kit."

I certainly don't think that WoL is the only way, and I agree that Bonded items in DMG II are another interesting take, but I like that WoL is a "easy to add" approach.

 

[Vocenoctum]

A penalty to something you don't intend to use anyway is NOT a penalty.

That was the flaw in many 2nd Ed kits... "I get a +2 to my attacks, but I have to spend 1 day a month away from the party doing community service. SWEET ! My DM NEVER plays out those things, so I'll take the kit."

Right, look at OA-Samurai, Kensai, and Psychic Weapon Master (from WotC site). All have time requirements. I've had 2 of them, and no DM ever used the time requirements.

It's a little different though, more like when I'd disallow "Enemies" flaws in all the games that had them. Sometimes it's more of a penalty for the group than the character.

And the best was the Swashbuckler. "you get an AC bonus, but odd events happen". Because normal PC's never have such events in their calm lives.

I certainly don't think that WoL is the only way, and I agree that Bonded items in DMG II are another interesting take, but I like that WoL is a "easy to add" approach.

The Bonded is decent, but it's similar to Ancestral Relic. It's just a way for a non-caster to have Craft Blah and Bleh with a different cost replacing the feat/ caster level.
That gets a bit boring for me.

 

[Nightfall]

A penalty to something you don't intend to use anyway is NOT a penalty.

BUT if you have to start using say, Diplomacy checks or some other Cha based skill, that penalty WILL start to hurt after all. That's why I think the skill checks make having decent ie non-low or less negatives work more for ability modifiers/penalties. Admittedly it's not a serious penalty like attack rolls, but then again saves might work just as well. (Specific saves not to all saves.)

Just an idea.

 

[smootrk]

As for WOTC's books and the potential for more, IMO I feel that it is about time for WOTC to start regurgitating the material that has appeared over the last few years but in revised, quality controled, balanced, and condensed formats. Sort of a version D&D3.75, with volumes broken into logical chunks.

My thoughts on the Player's side of things
Vol. I Races, Racial Levels, and Racial Paragons
Vol. II Core Classes, & Class Options (like the UA variants)
Vol. III Skills & Feats
Vol. IV Spells & Domains

I am sure more or less could be reasoned out, but I for one would buy a set of books that encompassed essentially all the material presented previously, in a logical & well presented style.

Other thoughts could be re-works of the Forgotten Realms Material, revised and condensed to be more inclusive and complete.

All this thinking stems from disliking browsing multiple books for related material that should be logically grouped. Even if large printed volumes are out of the question, a encyclopedic revamping of the rules as a series of PDF's would be something that I would actually buy, and I am otherwise not a huge fan of PDF's (I love books on a shelf).

Anyway, those are my thoughts on a way for WOTC to re-market materials already produced (with tweaks I'm sure), yet still provide a great service by reorganizing & indexing the material. I would spend my money on a lot of this material again in this format.

 

[Ranger REG]

As for WOTC's books and the potential for more, IMO I feel that it is about time for WOTC to start regurgitating the material that has appeared over the last few years but in revised, quality controled, balanced, and condensed formats. Sort of a version D&D3.75, with volumes broken into logical chunks.

My thoughts on the Player's side of things
Vol. I Races, Racial Levels, and Racial Paragons
Vol. II Core Classes, & Class Options (like the UA variants)
Vol. III Skills & Feats
Vol. IV Spells & Domains

I am sure more or less could be reasoned out, but I for one would buy a set of books that encompassed essentially all the material presented previously, in a logical & well presented style.

You can rationalize the need for multi-volume core rulebook set (heck, you never included book(s) for DM), but as a player I'm not buying four books.

 

[Ranger REG]

But many people are . Many people don't like it to have their settings diluted in concept by a constant flood of supplements. The original Forgotten Realms were a very nice setting. If you look at today's polls, it's still the North or the Silver Marches that get the most votes, except that you will hear remarks that those regions got unnecessarily cluttered with detail.

And yet we haven't gotten to Cormyr and the Dalelands but a Waterdeep book has been released. And I'm still waiting for my Kara-Tur.

Dark Sun also suffered from that fate. The original boxed set is a wonderful setting. Just look at that evocative map sheet with details from the city of Tyr. Later on, metaplot and clutter struck, and it wasn't such a strong idea anymore. If you just have one book and, perhaps, a single adventure, that's most of the time enough support for a setting. Long going series of supplements should be confined to the generic stuff, like Greyhawk and Eberron.

As much as I hate to talk about it -- not a fan of the setting -- I'm sure DS fans would differ with you.

 

[Mouseferatu]

As much as I hate to talk about it -- not a fan of the setting -- I'm sure DS fans would differ with you.

Actually, I'm a big fan of Dark Sun, and I'd tend to agree with him. I found the changes to the setting rather detrimental, and would have been happier if most of what occurred after the core boxed set was released had not, in fact, occurred.

 

[Psion]

Actually, I'm a big fan of Dark Sun, and I'd tend to agree with him. I found the changes to the setting rather detrimental, and would have been happier if most of what occurred after the core boxed set was released had not, in fact, occurred.

Yeah, DS was in a tough spot. It was a nice starting situation, but suffered from being entrained in the metaplot being generated by the novels.

I don't know how you would reconcile that now. Probably can't, not without alienating some segment of the fanbase.

Aside: Look, post 11,111