Wizards, need your input.

[Rashak Mani]

There are a few roles EVERY party must have... one of them is Wizard = Minion Killer.

Wizard might not hit single targets as well as melee types. They do have lower attack values but they are attacking Reflex and Fort defenses. So you must know what spell to use with which foe.

If you use scorching burst (vs reflx) against agile kobolds... you will feel useless. Now if you thunderwave (vs fort) them its so much satisfying. They have feeble Fort.

I like the 4E Wizard a lot... especially in lower levels. Can't say how they do later on... do use wand, actions points and other means of getting a better attack roll to guarantee your encounter powers.

 

[Gargoyle]

My two cents on wizards in 4e is is this:

The wizard is not as much damage dealing and uber powerful as in previous editions, but:

1) Their cantrips are awesome and reward creative players

2) The at will spells have subtle benefits other at will powers don't (i.e. magic missle is 2d4, and hench has a bell curve for damage, other powers push, slow, do bursts wtc.). Since these are at-will, wizards can do them over and over making wizards very adaptable.

3) Spells books are awesome. Wizards basically get twice as many dailies and utilities to choose from. This allows wizards to still feel very D&D-ish and makes them even more adaptable.

4) Built in ritual casting feat and 3 rituals. This is where the non-combat spells are (aside from the utilities). There is enough of them in the PHB to give a decent selection and new books are going to have more. These rituals add alot to the wizard's power.

5) Utility effects still include feather fall, invisibilty, shield, mirror image, resistance, dispel magic, dimension door and other wizard staples. Wizards are much more than ranged damage.

6) Most of the wizard dailies are some of teh most powerful effects in the game and their encounter powers are good too.


Our main wizard just became level 3. Between creative use of cantrips, scorching burst, magic missile, acid arrow, sleep, expeditious retreat, shield, fire shroud and burning hands, he is now cleaning up in encounters. We had a fight with 10 minions, 4 level 3 goblins and 1 level 4 hobgoblin and the wizard took out 7 of the minions, 2 of the goblins and the hobgoblin all on his own when he got seperated from the party and attacked the main portion of the enemies on his own with area effects.

The enemies were spread out, the wizard got a surprise action, and had an action point. He used his surprise to move into the middle of them and used his action point to get started with a fire shroud. Then he scorching burst another pocket of minions. Got ganged up on and used expeditious retreat to escape, started dropping the goblins with burning hands and magic missiles. Then acid arrow took out the hobgoblin. Altough he spent his action point and daily, it was impressive. No other class can pull off the wave after wave of area effect damage and carnage he did. It was awesome.

Wizards reward smart and creative players who figue out how to be resourceful with them, which is exactly how a good wizard should play, challenging and rewarding.

this. Wizards are incredibly fun to play, and might even be overpowered in the right hands. They are my favorite class so far.

I think people upset with the wizard either haven't played them yet, or simply prefer them as strikers+controllers rather than controllers.

The only thing I don't like about them is that they are the only controller class in the PHB. I would have preferred to have one more and not have to wait for the bard or whoever is going to be the next one. I could definitely see the bard becoming more of an enchanter type controller...that's where the charm person will be...

 

[Mistwell]

There are a few roles EVERY party must have... one of them is Wizard = Minion Killer.

Wizard might not hit single targets as well as melee types. They do have lower attack values but they are attacking Reflex and Fort defenses. So you must know what spell to use with which foe.

If you use scorching burst (vs reflx) against agile kobolds... you will feel useless. Now if you thunderwave (vs fort) them its so much satisfying. They have feeble Fort.

I like the 4E Wizard a lot... especially in lower levels. Can't say how they do later on... do use wand, actions points and other means of getting a better attack roll to guarantee your encounter powers.

I like them as well. But I don't think you must have one. Particularly since not all wizards are minion-killers, if for example they choose magic missle and ray (both single-target attacks).

 

[Rashak Mani]

I like them as well. But I don't think you must have one. Particularly since not all wizards are minion-killers, if for example they choose magic missle and ray (both single-target attacks).

Even a Controller Wizard is wise in choosing a at-will area spell. No other class can kill off minions like the wizard. The party can get overwhelmed if they don't have a wizard.

 

[1720xx]

Here's the thing, though - it may be magic, but it follows certain rules in the game. You wanting your orb to do great stuff, without the Wisdom investment, is a little like wanting a fighter who deals tons of damage, without the Strength investment. (Well, that's an exaggeration, but I think the point is there.)

Within the magic rules, Orbs use Wisdom. I'm pretty sure this was counterbalanced (or counter-enhanced) with other uses of Wisdom in the game, like the 1st-level At-Will Swarm of Daggers (or whatever) power.

Generally, when a class needs a lot of stats, it's a balancing mechanism. Your group can naturally do whatever you'd like, but you may run into some funny problems down the road.

-O

No, More like playing a fighter without dexterity, Why couldn't intelligence be substituted there as in the patient old swordsman fighting a younger brawler, just waits for him to over commit, no agility, just treachery. I hate being told that there is no other way to work a character. to quote alice in wonderland All ways are the queens way, Bull. Wizards, hasbro is going down the same street TSR went down, Alienating people who imagine things differently is going to cost customers, less customers is less revenue. But I am ranting. And I see no reason why they couldn't have opened up the classes that instead of confirming 3 dump stats, Every stat is an advantage. Every stat should have potential for every class. Art imitates life. BTW DM agreed to the swap, Will let board know how it works out next weekend.

 

[Anguirus]

and HATE that WOTC is telling me where to put my attributes while spanking me when i deviate from a pre prescribed build.

Bwa?

In 3E there was one kind of wizard that didn't suck: one that prioritized Int first, then Con, then Dex (or, possibly, the reverse).

Hence, 90% of wizards were budding Olympians, but almost none of them had decent Wis or Cha. Exactly how many wizard-archetype characters in fantasy dumped Wis and Cha?

Now, you still need Int, but you can prioritize Dex if you want to blast things, Con if you want to get up close with the Staff of Defense and use Close powers (hmm, come to think of it, that would be fun to try with the Wizard of the Spiral Path), Wis if you want to be a Control wizard (which quite frankly makes a hell of a lot of sense), and you are also rewarded for a good Cha by the Spell Focus feat. Cry me a river.

 

[1720xx]

Bwa?

In 3E there was one kind of wizard that didn't suck: one that prioritized Int first, then Con, then Dex (or, possibly, the reverse).

Hence, 90% of wizards were budding Olympians, but almost none of them had decent Wis or Cha. Exactly how many wizard-archetype characters in fantasy dumped Wis and Cha?

Now, you still need Int, but you can prioritize Dex if you want to blast things, Con if you want to get up close with the Staff of Defense and use Close powers (hmm, come to think of it, that would be fun to try with the Wizard of the Spiral Path), Wis if you want to be a Control wizard (which quite frankly makes a hell of a lot of sense), and you are also rewarded for a good Cha by the Spell Focus feat. Cry me a river.

Yes, Con is Essential, Wisdom, 2E junk it, 3 E Junked it every time. Will save is mitigated by Iron will, Magic Items at higher levels High Dex was AC, Now replaced with INT, High CHA, Actually perfered sorcerer (Def sorcer=Wizard clone sans selection subed for brute force but oh well, let me play the type of character I like). Either way, I was not crippled by class features that did nothing thanks to me placing my abilities where I felt I like them. BTW read the man in black for a charismatic wizard who messes with destiny, Sneaky bastard too. 3E woulda been an early adopter spy master to go with that magic.

 

[Cadfan]

No, More like playing a fighter without dexterity, Why couldn't intelligence be substituted there as in the patient old swordsman fighting a younger brawler, just waits for him to over commit, no agility, just treachery. I hate being told that there is no other way to work a character. to quote alice in wonderland All ways are the queens way, Bull. Wizards, hasbro is going down the same street TSR went down, Alienating people who imagine things differently is going to cost customers, less customers is less revenue. But I am ranting. And I see no reason why they couldn't have opened up the classes that instead of confirming 3 dump stats, Every stat is an advantage. Every stat should have potential for every class. Art imitates life. BTW DM agreed to the swap, Will let board know how it works out next weekend.

Kudos to your DM for allowing the swap, but if you're going to have ability scores in a game do things, then you have to pick what they do. And that means choosing to have some ability scores NOT do certain things. You like swapping int for dex, but if the game were designed your way, I might not like it and I might write a message like yours and ask my DM to let me swap dex for int. And if everyone just chooses their best ability score and makes up a story for why it makes sense, it wrecks the whole point.

So, I'm glad you are happy with the outcome you got with your DM, but you haven't been straightjacketed in any unreasonable manner. Somewhere the game designers had to decide what stat to have affect things like swiftness in combat, and they picked dex. They had to pick something.

 

[Goobermunch]

I actually played one this weekend through the beginning of H1, It is a servicable class, and I like the at will and encounter aspects. That said i am a heavy Role player, and I miss certain spells and HATE that WOTC is telling me where to put my attributes while spanking me when i deviate from a pre prescribed build.

This I don't get.

I've been playing since late last year, and really love my star pact warlock. I chose to go star pact and really emphasize my charisma and constitution, to maximize the benefit I get out of my powers.

Except really, the only bonus I get is +3 or +4 to damage on some of my powers. And, as I've discovered, my skill use in some of my other stats is not as great as I'd like. And I can't qualify for some of the feats I'd like.

Seriously, given how much we've been using skills in our game, and how much I enjoy the non-combat parts of the system, I'm honestly wishing I'd done a different stat allocation: 14 13 13 13 13 13. Given my race (half-elf), that could have given me two 15s, a 14, and three 13s. Viewed differently, that's 3 stats at +2 and 3 at +1. My social skills would be a little behind the curve (only +2 total) but my athletic skills would be much improved from where they are now (-1). And, I'd be able to take all the feats.

I really don't see the concern about being forced into stats, since in my play experience, very high stats equate to relatively small bonuses to damage (compared from what they could be). At this point, I think that having a greater number of pluses to skills would have better served me over the life of my character.

Maybe the reason you're feeling bound to a "required" build is that you haven't taken the time to experiment outside the build.

Yes, certain stats are "required" to eke out every possible bonus to your character. But in my experience, the game is unlikely to penalize you significantly for deviating. In fact, you may find that there are rewards for giving yourself versatility, especially if you have a DM who is interested in Role Play and story over pure combat.

I must confess, in all fairness, that I have found a feat that works well for my character. Skill Training. I've now taken it for nearly every feat I've had.

And yes, my star pact warlock is the Diplomator. With his high charisma, diplomacy (and intimidate and bluff) training, half-elven bonuses, and beguiling tongue, he can be charming (or intimidating or . . . bluffing(?)) like no one's business. But it's also nice to be able to play up his background as an archaeologist (history and dungeoneering), raised on the streets of Sharn (streetwise).

Try varying out of the "forced" role and see what happens. I think you'll find that it's just as viable as the "suggested" builds.

--G

 

[Ginnel]

The enemies were spread out, the wizard got a surprise action, and had an action point. He used his surprise to move into the middle of them and used his action point to get started with a fire shroud. Then he scorching burst another pocket of minions. Got ganged up on and used expeditious retreat to escape, started dropping the goblins with burning hands and magic missiles. Then acid arrow took out the hobgoblin. Altough he spent his action point and daily, it was impressive. No other class can pull off the wave after wave of area effect damage and carnage he did. It was awesome.

Just to let you know rules as written say

p.267 (top right in the box)
The suprise round
"Limited Action: if you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action. You can also take free actions, but you can't spend action points."

so your wizard wouldn't be able to move then kick off a power with his action point. Same goes for any suprised people they couldn't spend action points either.