Wizards, nerfed or not?

Ahglock

First Post
I agree they are probably a little too weak now.

But that does in no way change how it was good, nay absolutely necessary, to nerf the 3E spellcasters. (And not just the wizard - if 4E had had a Sorcerer it would have been massively nerfed too)

So, yes, it's not perfect, but it's much better. Perhaps Wizards will rectify the Wizard in Arcane Power?

I think they needed a nerf, and I don't argue that. Though I do think the needed nerf is not that much in raw power, but in the power of unusual combinations or a handful of broken spells. Also in 3e they didn't think through charged items IMO. I think in 3e a wizard could be totally balanced in quite a few games because the players have no desire to play them to there full potential.

If you are not designing a super mage, and you aren't playing the 15 minute work day, or charged item take over every roll man, or the somehow always improved invisible, flying whatever else, or scry, buff, teleport etc. They work out fairly well, though I think the save mechainc tilted save or dies into a too favorable position.

That is a lot of ifs, and a game should try to correct things so you don't have all those ifs. 4e Heavily nerfed the mage in comarison to 3e, heck I think all classes were nerfed under that comparison. They may have powers, and maneuvers now, but it still takes a lot longer to drop an orc. I don't care if its a level 3 limit break that calls meteors down from the sky with your sword, if it only does 10% of a average foes HP, and my 3e full attack did 50%, well you've been nerfed.

I think comapritve to the other 4e classes the wiard got a raw deal. The least important role, whcih classes from other roles frequently do better, weak damage, freindly fire, way too much reliance on me picking the right groups of enemies, with the right tactis. Oh and your specialty is getting rid of the nuisances that aren't much of a threat, while other people take down the boss. Maybe minions change at high levels but so far they may hit just as reliably as other foes, but they don't hit very hard. The damage they always do damage is frequently the minimum damage done from the rest of the enemies on the field.

Still all those ifs of mine are gone and the balance is fairly close.
 

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Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
It seems to me that

1) They are less powerful than their 3e ancestors in terms of spells castable

2) They can get a better AC more right from the start now (Int bonus to AC, can gain armour proficiencies)

3) They have lots more hp than earlier edition wizards (although for reasons which are not particularly clear to me they have less hp than any other class... their power is removed, why are their relative hp not increased?)

4) They are nerfed in terms of variety. In earlier editions you could choose to be the blaster mage, the summoner mage, the charmer mage - all kinds of archetype could be followed. In 4e you've got a choice of blaster mage, pretty much. Designers have said that this is because they wanted to give some of those other archetypes to 'other classes' (psions for charm effects), which personally I dislike as a principle. The cynic in me says that it is a way of selling more books in the future, rather than supporting the traditional D&D archetypes.

Cheers
 

Byronic

First Post
4) They are nerfed in terms of variety. In earlier editions you could choose to be the blaster mage, the summoner mage, the charmer mage - all kinds of archetype could be followed. In 4e you've got a choice of blaster mage, pretty much. Designers have said that this is because they wanted to give some of those other archetypes to 'other classes' (psions for charm effects), which personally I dislike as a principle. The cynic in me says that it is a way of selling more books in the future, rather than supporting the traditional D&D archetypes.


I agree completely. I wonder if it would be possible to squash them all together when they're all out.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Yes.

That could mean a few things though.

First is "more balance." For what that's worth.

Second is "less tools." Wizards aren't the party swiss army knife anymore (anyone can be).

Third is "no one-spell-kills." For what that's worth.

If none of these things were problems for you before, 4e wizards are nerfed and it probably hurts them.

If any of these things were problems for you before, 4e wizards are nerfed, and that's probably a good thing.

Yes, they're nerfed. Whether that's a good thing or not....is more subjective.
 

Remathilis

Legend
4) They are nerfed in terms of variety. In earlier editions you could choose to be the blaster mage, the summoner mage, the charmer mage - all kinds of archetype could be followed. In 4e you've got a choice of blaster mage, pretty much. Designers have said that this is because they wanted to give some of those other archetypes to 'other classes' (psions for charm effects), which personally I dislike as a principle. The cynic in me says that it is a way of selling more books in the future, rather than supporting the traditional D&D archetypes.

You have a point, but here is my thought on "other classes" and the "blaster mage"

Off the top of your head, name as many different types of "wizards" as you can. Not necessarily D&D-approved types, just what you think of when you think "wizard"

Chances are, you thought of one or more of the following:

* Blasters who toss around fire and lightning attacks.
* Charmer/Illusionist who uses guile, charm and mental trickery to subdue foes.
* Necromancers with soul-crushing black magic and armies of the dead
* Summoners who have magical monsters fight for them.
* Diviners/Occultists who use oracle powers and generally passive magic

Now where, besides D&D, do most of those archetypes all get smashed into one?

A charmer is going to focus on charisma powers and probably have non-harmful magic (like misdirections). The complete opposite of the necromancer, and very different from the summoner. Why should one class represent all these archetypes? Heck, it was the condensing of the illusionist and magic-user class in 2e that lead to wizards gaining HUGE amounts of unforeseen flexibility and power.

I'm actually looking forward to specific classes to handle summoners (invoker?), necromancers, beguilers, etc. It will make those classes seem more flavorful and unique, rather than "a wizard with a limited spell list and a few class abilities" (warmage).

The one archetype getting trashed? "Generalist", or "I know the best of everyone's spell lists." Good riddance.
 

Hussar

Legend
A route I really hope they follow in 4e is what was paved by the Shadowcaster. Granted the mechanics were a bit wonky, but, I really, really liked how strongly themed he was. To me, a Shadowcaster, updated to 4e, would make a much, much better controller than the wizard did. While the SC did have some direct damage stuff, most of his best effects were battlefield control.
 


Gimby

Explorer
Ars Magica
Mage the Ascension
Certain Superhero games (I remember an old TSR one that had a lot)

Not sure I'd agree here - in AM and Mage everyone is a wizard, but its broken up into various Traditions/whatnot. These in turn are fairly strongly themed, not to the extent of being classes, but don't really allow/support the flexibility that the D&D generalist wizard did.
 

Cadfan

First Post
They get mashed together in a lot of RPGs. Less so in fiction.

I still think that mashing is a dumb trope.

I don't care who gets the job title "wizard." I just prefer theme and variety to my spellcasters.
 

I think using the term nerf is incorrect. There are two important differences between 4e and older edition wizards:

1) In combat, 4e wizards no longer have to worry about running out of spells (any more so than the fighters and rogues have to worry about running out exploits). This use to be a phenomenon unique to wizards.

2) Out of combat, 4e wizards are far less magical than in older editions. Rituals do not make up for the inability to instantly cast "fun" spells.
 

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