Wizards vs. Psions at Level 20

[RigaMortus2]

In respect to wizards, I believe you are correct here. At the very minimum you give up familiar advancement typically and bonus feats.

Now if we want to talk about why a person would take a sorcerer to 20 when they could PrC ... I think there are plenty of PrC classes that give full spell progression. So technically you do still lose a bit of familiar stuff. But what sorcerer wouldn't PrC except for RP and flavor reasons. Mechanically, is there a reason not to PrC a sorcerer?

Feats required for the PrC? A straight Sorcerer can pick whatever feats they want, but one going for a PrC has to meet certain requirements, usually specific feats. Some could very well be useful, others not so much. Depends on the PrC they are going for of course.

 

[KarinsDad]

A psion has the advantage over an equal level wizard at every level. The only chance the wizard has is if he knows he will be facing off against the psion ahead of time. And then it's pretty even to slightly favoring the wizard (because the wizard has enough spells to choose from to be well prepared to face the psion).

It depends on many factors, but I really think an anti-psion prepared wizard can have a significant edge.

For example, if the Wizard has Psychic Turmoil or Greater Psychic Turmoil in his repetoire and prepared, that can be a little bothersome to the Psion at real close range. For example, if the Psion wanted to do a touch power or a psionic weapon against the Wizard, he would have to go through this area in order to do that.

Also, Globe of Invulnerability will totally negate any 4th or lower level psionic power which tends to be about half of the Psion's powers.

If the Wizard can manage to attack the Psion with an Evards, PT, and GoI, the Psion might be in serious trouble if he does not have Teleport or Ethereal Travel of some kind (Astral Caravan, Ectoplasmic Form, or Dimension Door will not cut it). Once captured, the Wizard backs away and throws a Dimensional Anchor at the Psion and the Psion could be in big trouble. PT is placed on a point in space, so the Wizard could be some distance away protected, even behind a wall and still be taking out the Psion.

The Wizard would just have to remain hidden (Mind Blank, Greater Invisibility) and survive long enough to totally drain the Psion of PP (about 10 rounds, 20 if the Psion had not used any PP that day and uses none in the combat) whereas the Psion would not only be trapped and have to survive the Wizard's additional attacks, but he would also be unable to use half of his powers if still in the Globe. There are only a few powers that would allow a Psion to escape a trap like this (e.g. Timeless Body, Null Psionics Field in campaigns were magic and psionics are the same, etc.).


Granted, a Psion might be able to dispatch a Wizard as well, but the Wizard should win if he knows ahead of time (divinations) that he will be fighting a Psion. It is only when the Wizard is not prepared to fight a Psion where the Psion should have a significant edge.

 

[Truth Seeker]

Heh, borrow this from B5, the TV series, in the presence of both.

They cancel each other out, power wise.

 

[IcyCool]

It depends on many factors, but I really think an anti-psion prepared wizard can have a significant edge.

I don't think that he has a "significant" edge, or that he "should" win. But I certainly think the wizard will come out on top more than the psion, if he gets to know about the fight ahead of time.

 

[wildstarsreach]

It depends on many factors, but I really think an anti-psion prepared wizard can have a significant edge.

For example, if the Wizard has Psychic Turmoil or Greater Psychic Turmoil in his repetoire and prepared, that can be a little bothersome to the Psion at real close range. For example, if the Psion wanted to do a touch power or a psionic weapon against the Wizard, he would have to go through this area in order to do that.

Also, Globe of Invulnerability will totally negate any 4th or lower level psionic power which tends to be about half of the Psion's powers.

If the Wizard can manage to attack the Psion with an Evards, PT, and GoI, the Psion might be in serious trouble if he does not have Teleport or Ethereal Travel of some kind (Astral Caravan, Ectoplasmic Form, or Dimension Door will not cut it). Once captured, the Wizard backs away and throws a Dimensional Anchor at the Psion and the Psion could be in big trouble. PT is placed on a point in space, so the Wizard could be some distance away protected, even behind a wall and still be taking out the Psion.

The Wizard would just have to remain hidden (Mind Blank, Greater Invisibility) and survive long enough to totally drain the Psion of PP (about 10 rounds, 20 if the Psion had not used any PP that day and uses none in the combat) whereas the Psion would not only be trapped and have to survive the Wizard's additional attacks, but he would also be unable to use half of his powers if still in the Globe. There are only a few powers that would allow a Psion to escape a trap like this (e.g. Timeless Body, Null Psionics Field in campaigns were magic and psionics are the same, etc.).


Granted, a Psion might be able to dispatch a Wizard as well, but the Wizard should win if he knows ahead of time (divinations) that he will be fighting a Psion. It is only when the Wizard is not prepared to fight a Psion where the Psion should have a significant edge.

This is my argument. A wizard who is prepared agaianst a Psion should clean the psions clock. But a Psion should do better in general because he can go with whatever he knows in any encounter. Mind you, I love wizards but like Psions more.

 

[Grog]

woah, there, fella! I can't think of a wizard-type prestige class that giveth without takething away. not so sure your assumption is true

What about Archmage? It's even core.

Sure, you have to sacrifice spell slots for the class abilities, but what you get is a lot better than what you're giving up.

 

[Wolfwood2]

What about Archmage? It's even core.

Sure, you have to sacrifice spell slots for the class abilities, but what you get is a lot better than what you're giving up.

It's an acceptable trade, but losing spell slots really hurts!

That 5th level slot could be going to a teleport to get you out of a jam, much less an 8th or 9th level slot.

 

[Bad Paper]

What about Archmage? It's even core.

Sure, you have to sacrifice spell slots for the class abilities, but what you get is a lot better than what you're giving up.

...says you. If everyone agreed with you, then the Archmage would be a must-have, signalling that it's too good, and it would be tweaked downward. As it currently stands, there's a big toss-up. The single greatest power of a wizard is her flexibility. Permanently fixing powers into spell slots robs her of that power.

 

[Wolfwood2]

This is my argument. A wizard who is prepared agaianst a Psion should clean the psions clock. But a Psion should do better in general because he can go with whatever he knows in any encounter. Mind you, I love wizards but like Psions more.

One on one duels aren't very accurate for D&D, anyway.

The real question is, can a Wizard 20 backed up by a Fighter 20, Cleric 20, and Rogue 20 beat a Psion 20 backed up by Fighter 20, Cleric 20, and Rogue 20. (SRD only in both cases.)

I think the Wiz 20 has the edge there. His spells are better oriented towards team play than a psion's are.

 

[Nail]

It depends on many factors, but I really think an anti-psion prepared wizard can have a significant edge.

Possibly.

Then again, the psion has several counter-measures (especially given that the Psion presumably knows his own weaknesses). One of the the most obvious is Personal Mind Blank (at a lower level than the Wiz, BTW.). With that up, the wizard can't use divination to know he will be fighting a psion.

In a stand-up take-down fight, I'd put my money on the Psion.