Wizards vs. Psions at Level 20

[wildstarsreach]

I think we're getting away from what I was originally asking. I never meant to see who would win in a fight because that depends on too many variables. What I was trying to ask was in a normal game of D&D run by your average DM, who is generally more powerful at level 20. If you were putting together a party and you already had all other roles filled, who would you rahter have: a wizard or a psion? Who can do more damage, who can better help the party survive, who can

So far a lot of what I have heard favors the psion because of the flexibility. A lot of the arguements in favor of wizards seen to be prefixed with the condition "if he knows what he will be fighting". I don't know about your DMs but mine has never told me what situations he will be putting us in ahead of time.

I would say Psion. You get a lot in that the wizard would buff as necessary and you get to do your own buffing beyond that. A telepath is my favorite and a Kalashtar if possible with the replacement levels.

Your feats will bring you over the top or not.

Psicrystal affinity
Psicrystal Containment
Psionic Meditation (if you have a 13 wisdom)
Empower
Psychic Luck (out of magic of Eberron if you are using action points)
Split twin ray
Combat Manifestation
Psionic Body (Extra HP)
Power Penetration and greater power penetration (+4/8 to overcome PR)
Point blank and precise shot
Weapon focus Ray

These will do a lot to enhance the power. If you are going a shaper with Astral Construct, then taking extend would be a must.

 

[wildstarsreach]

This is a very good breakdown. I also agree there is no doubt that if both know that they will meet at X place and time (ala showdown), the wizard has a clear advantage. In a "random" encounter, the psion prob has an advantage thou because they deal damage slightly faster.

Regarding which one I want in my party, the wizard. Regarding party usefulness, wizards simply bring more to the table than a psion. The breath of spells availible to a wizard is staggering.

If the Psion has Time hop, he can skip ahead by using it on himself therefore avoiding having spent himself. Also let us not forget Temporal acceleration, which is a swift action. He does this and get out with at least one round to buff and repair.

 

[gabrion]

If the question is which one I would want to adventure in a party with me, my answer is absolutely a wizard. Campaigns can go in a lot of unpredicted directions, so having a caster that can adjust to the needs of the party/needs of the campaign is a huge advantage. Also, as pointed out earlier, the wizard is generally more party friendly than the psion.

If the question is rather which one will win if pitted against eachother, the answer seems to be whoever wins initiative.

 

[KarinsDad]

If the Psion has Time hop, he can skip ahead by using it on himself therefore avoiding having spent himself. Also let us not forget Temporal acceleration, which is a swift action. He does this and get out with at least one round to buff and repair.

Time Hop could be terrible for the Psion. While he is off in the timestream, the Wizard could be buffing up, gating in creatures, etc.


As for Temporal Acceleration, it is slightly better than Time Stop. But, not enough that the Psion has a significant edge.

 

[WarlockLord]

Also, I'd like to point out that, if the wizard appears to be losing, it's easier for him to escape, rest, come back and beat the stuffing out of the psion.

Hey, I like psions. But spellbooks are just too much fun.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

I think we're getting away from what I was originally asking. I never meant to see who would win in a fight because that depends on too many variables. What I was trying to ask was in a normal game of D&D run by your average DM, who is generally more powerful at level 20. If you were putting together a party and you already had all other roles filled, who would you rahter have: a wizard or a psion? Who can do more damage, who can better help the party survive, who can

So far a lot of what I have heard favors the psion because of the flexibility. A lot of the arguements in favor of wizards seen to be prefixed with the condition "if he knows what he will be fighting". I don't know about your DMs but mine has never told me what situations he will be putting us in ahead of time.

As much as I love the Psion, I would rather have a Wizard in the party if I must choose. The over all flexibility of being able to prepare different spells for different situations is far too useful. Sure, it can be a often be a real pain trying to guess what spells you will need, but you can always keep a few slots open to spend 15 minutes later in the day to load that specific spell you need. You can even do this for combat if your party has an exceptional scout.

 

[superkurt13]

As much as I love the Psion, I would rather have a Wizard in the party if I must choose. The over all flexibility of being able to prepare different spells for different situations is far too useful. Sure, it can be a often be a real pain trying to guess what spells you will need, but you can always keep a few slots open to spend 15 minutes later in the day to load that specific spell you need. You can even do this for combat if your party has an exceptional scout.

I guess it depends on the campaigns you're in. In the one I play in we don't get enough forewarning of what's coming to really prepare for things like that. I do like the idea of taking 15 minutes to stop and learn a spell if you happen to have the downtime.

Good discussion, thanks for the input guys!

 

[wildstarsreach]

I guess it depends on the campaigns you're in. In the one I play in we don't get enough forewarning of what's coming to really prepare for things like that. I do like the idea of taking 15 minutes to stop and learn a spell if you happen to have the downtime.

Good discussion, thanks for the input guys!

You are welcome. My DM is starting a savage tide campaign and I'm going to play a Psiforged Shaper from 1-20. Even though people have counselled me to dump the Psiforged Body feat for Adamantine, I'm playing it for the idea of flavor. Just so happens that we don't have a wizard. So it will have to punt and make do in that role.

But if you build one at 20, a Kalashtar telepath with the replacement levels and the feats previously mentioned by me would be my first choice even in an undead heavy campaign. The other would be what I just played in an Eberron Age of Worms Campaign which was a kalashtar cerebremancer. Psion being the one to advance once I finished the PrC.

 

[KarinsDad]

But if you build one at 20, a Kalashtar telepath with the replacement levels and the feats previously mentioned by me would be my first choice even in an undead heavy campaign.

Which book are the replacement levels found in?

 

[wildstarsreach]

Which book are the replacement levels found in?

The Races of Eberron on Page 125.