Pathfinder 1E Wizkids should take the Pathfinder 1.0 ruleset and publish their own RPG.

[Aldarc]

And, yes, D&D can do anything, just as Traveller or Story Teller can do anything. Mechanics are not a limit on play.

If mechanics are not a limit on play, then why did so many D&D players claim otherwise about 4e? Or why do we need more mechanical support for D&D 5e? (And to be clear here: we need not limit ourselves to just 4e in a hobby rife of such examples.)

 

[Parmandur]

If mechanics are not a limit on play, then why did so many D&D players claim otherwise about 4e? Or why do we need more mechanical support for D&D 5e? (And to be clear here: we need not limit ourselves to just 4e in a hobby rife of such examples.)

4E's biggest issues were presentation and fluff, honestly: throw out the IP people loved, and make the books dry and technical, that's what you get.

 

[Parmandur]

@Parmandur i think some games do certain things better.

It would be interesting to have sales and play figures matched to 5es release.

Traveller does character creation better than most games: entirely not enough randomness in most RPG PC generation.

But in terms of genre and setting, once you have rules as a baseline, you can do it with any mechanics. There is a magical fantasy version of Traveller out there, and Ancient Rome Traveller.

 

[Retreater]

4E's biggest issues were presentation and fluff, honestly: throw out the IP people loved, and make the books dry and technical, that's what you get.

My group and I loved the edition of Gamma World based on the engine of 4E. In my opinion, it wasn't the system of 4E that was so bad, it was its departure from the expectations of D&D play.

At least what I noticed is that there was flavor and good settings in 4E. Also, there were flavor lines for every power and ability. They also used gamist language to describe the game in very specific terms - for better or worse this is one of the things most strongly remembered about that edition.

 

[Parmandur]

My group and I loved the edition of Gamma World based on the engine of 4E. In my opinion, it wasn't the system of 4E that was so bad, it was its departure from the expectations of D&D play.

At least what I noticed is that there was flavor and good settings in 4E. Also, there were flavor lines for every power and ability. They also used gamist language to describe the game in very specific terms - for better or worse this is one of the things most strongly remembered about that edition.

Yeah, exactly.

 

[Campbell]

If the mechanics are not impacting the outcome of what happens at the table what use are these massive tomes?

 

[Retreater]

So while we are not necessarily seeing one-for-one correspondences in the trend, I hope you can understand or be sympathetic to my worry about 5e's effect on the creative diversity in the market.

I can understand that 5E has been a powerhouse in the popular culture and is going to influence a lot of other game design. I'm enjoying many other games and supporting a variety of systems including WHFRPG, Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, and Forbidden Lands (to name a few). I also picked up Pugmire (a 5E-based game with dogs) and Esper Genesis (a 5E-based sci-fi game).

I recently lost two players out of my gaming group (out of 5, which basically ended my campaign) because we weren't playing 5E and they wanted that over Savage Worlds. We'll be okay, because in the end I'm DMing what I want to DM, and I need to get away from D&D for a bit.

 

[Parmandur]

Of the mechanics are not impacting the outcome of what happens at the table what use are these massive tomes?

Reading for entertainment, mainly. Idea mines.

 

[darjr]

I need to get away from D&D for a bit.

I totally get this. I have been very lucky that 5e remains that game for me.

 

[Aldarc]

Traveller does character creation better than most games: entirely not enough randomness in most RPG PC generation.

But in terms of genre and setting, once you have rules as a baseline, you can do it with any mechanics. There is a magical fantasy version of Traveller out there, and Ancient Rome Traveller.

This argument seems to come from a shallow, one-dimensional sense of "D&D can do everything" that sees "everything" only in terms of color or setting rather than how the mechanics actually impact play and cultivate the play experience. It's a bit ridiculous. It's almost like saying that Monopoly can do anything just because there are different versions that reskin the board and play pieces: e.g., World of Warcraft Monopoly, Golden Girls Monopoly, Star Wars Monopoly, Disney Princess Monopoly, etc. At a certain point, you have to realize that your game is not doing everything: it's just doing Monopoly.

So let us take the example of Ancient Rome. Just because we can slap a coat of Rome-colored paint on 5e does not mean that it can do everything. You are only establishing that it can do 5e-style Rome. But I cannot use 5e Rome to garner the same play experiences as I would from Ancient Rome Traveller, Ancient Rome Mythras, Ancient Rome CoC, Ancient Rome (whatever the FFG system is called), Ancient Rome Cypher, Ancient Rome Fate, Ancient Rome PbtA, or Ancient Rome Blades in the Dark. Because these games do things differently and will have different play experiences. The mechanics matter, and you cannot with any real sincerity tell me that 5e (or D&D) can do everything.

On other forums, such as RPG.net, you will get a lot of people who recommend using Fate to run their games. However, even one of the creators of Fate, Rob Donoghue had enough humility about his own system that he co-created to say that Fate is not good for everything nor should it be used for everything. Because he is aware of the limitations of Fate as an engine and toolkit. And yet why do so many people feel the need to be so hyper-defensive about what should not be a controversial statement: i.e., that D&D cannot do everything? Why the desperate need by some to defend the idea that D&D can do everything? What spurs that impulse?

Reading for entertainment, mainly. Idea mines.

Are you honestly arguing that the mechanics don't matter or impact play?