Wizzie/Sorc vs Bladesinger vs Spellsword @ level 20. Help please!

[Avatar28]

We play several different campaigns in our group. We're about to start our 4th one this week. The DM is starting us at 20th level and we're going epic from there.

The party will consist of a Cleric, a Monk, a Rogue, and (maybe) a Paladin, plus my character. On the one hand, a 20th levell wizzie can kick some serious butt. That seems to be what our DM is encouraging me to do. On the other hand, I REALLY like the bladesinger's concept of a fighter that uses magic to increase their fighting abilities. I would probably go either Wiz9/Ftr1/BlS10 or Src10/Bls10 or Wiz10/BlS10.

With 20th level gold to start with, I should be able to seriously crank the armor class of the bladesinger. I believe I was looking at around mid 40's for AC with a high dex and the blade singer's AC bonus from INT.

I also could go the spellsword route. It's not every day you would see an arcane magic user walking around in Full Plate. That would save me from having to sink a lot of money into a manual to increase my dex. I'm not sure what class distribution I would go for in that case though.

Then, there's always the straight Wiz that our DM is encouraging me to do. There IS something to be said for having access to all the deadliest magics and to laying the smack down on some fools.

The two biggest problems I can see with the Bladesinger and Spellsword are that I wouldn't be able to access all the most powerful magics and that I would be cut out of most of the epic feats/spells/prestiege classes. I've barely even glanced at the ELH, though.

So, please, I'm open to any advice and opinions that you folks can give. Oh, and the game is going to strive for a balance between combat and non-combat stuff.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'd go full wiz. One thing though is your class combo for spellsowrd is weak. Spelswords don't advance in magic, they get their won spearate chart. They are best made with a minimum of wiz/sor and then mostly fighter, then spellsword.(to get skills one level or rogue or bard, or heck ignore wizard and just take multiple levels of bard) Spellswords mix and match magic evenly, bladesingers are more pladin/ranger like in thatt hey are primarily fighters but get some magic with it.

But in the end if going epic and starting at 20, the full wizard kicks butt. Persoanlly I like item creators so I'f focus around that. Two cool things for item creation both in epic book is the feat that allows you to apply your full int bonus to the DC from your crafted items, and a feat that is more for metamagic, but makes your wands and staves really cool is a epic feat that lowers the # of levels you boost a spell by 1. Empower would therefore only be a +1level mod if you took this once,(you can't lower it past a 1 level mod) if you take it 3 times quicken is only +1 level. Take fireball for exmaple empower it 6 times so it is a 9th level spell, its ave dc is a bit lower but in effect you are doing 40d6.

There are plenty of dumb tricks you can pull with a wiz moreso than any other class save maybe the cleric, oh and if you want to fight a tripple empowered tensers transformaiton should help out 5d4 to str/con +10bab, all marital weapons prof, and oh 50d6 bonus HP.

 

[Balgus]

I asked that same question a while back- and though the spellsword concept is cool, it can be achieved (especially with teh FR and S&S stuff) with more potency with a warpriest, or a melee oriented cleric (same thing). You get lvl 9 spells- divine ones at that- and you get FP and a huge spell list. The low skill points might be a bummer outside of combat tho.

If you go bladesinger- then go wiz. the high int from wiz would incr your AC.

If you are not set in stone about these concepts, you might wanna try some other PrC that increaes spells as you gain lvls in PrC- just takes a little more lookin.

The best thing I got was the variant bard from BoEM II- it increased the bard's spell list and gave him a couple more abilities- differing from PHB.

Or if you want- a Sorc (or variant Sorc from Monte) with Tensor's Transformation can do the same trick. It gives you a fighetr's BAB and 18 str.

Being 20 lvl- you would be able to pretty much afford anything. Plus, if you are a magic user- then you can wish for higher stats- and miracle and create tomes.

Oh yeah, and aPsychic warior will do about the same thing. You get great spell like abilituies, and large HD.

Plus- if your DM rules that psionics and arcane magic are two different things, then unless he has psionics specifically tailored to you, then you will be unstoppable. antimagic- no problem- it is not magic. DR? no sweat, this is psionic weapon, not arcane... and the psionic weapons and armors are pretty cool too...

 

[Avatar28]

No, spellswords advance in prior caster level once every other level.

I don't have the psioncs book, or I would do that. I loved psionics in 2E, but haven't really gotten into them in 3E yet. I wish the book wasn't freaking $30. I've got to have my character ready to play by Thursday, so time is sneaking up a bit on me.

The character concept I have in mind is something of a wild child type of character. Having decent fighting ability really fits in with the concept.

I guess part of my problem is that I've got a sort of general idea what I want, but I'm not 100% certain what it is. It's just a mental picture I get. She's in this castle that she got into by seducing the noble. In my mental picture, she's having to escape now and she's using her fighting abilities combined with her spells to escape. There's actually been two. In the one, she's definitely quite a warrior. In the other, she's more of a MU, but still can kick decent butt fighting... Think of the captain from cutthroat island if she were a powerful magic user too....

BTW, if I DO choose to create items, I've got up to 10,000 XP to play with for that. In regards to the tomes that increase your stats (manual of gainful exercise and all that), will those bonuses stack with your bonuses that you get from increasing stats at level up and from wishes?

 

[Chun-tzu]

The best character is a character played effectively. A 20th level Wizard is more powerful than a Bladesinger or Spellsword, but it's also the hardest to play because it comes with a ton of spells that you need to know like the back of your hand. You need to know which spell to use when, i.e. the kind of experience that the player gains by playing a character through early and mid-levels.

So, if you've played mid and high level spellcasters before, then you know better than anyone here whether you'd rather play a straight spellcaster or a spellcasting combat character.

If you go Bladesinger or Spellsword, then you can simply continue advancing in those classes (I believe there are Epic versions of both on Wizards' website). Any of the three would be a valuable contribution to the group, although I think the Spellsword might become second fiddle to the Cleric in both combat and spellcasting.

 

[drnuncheon]

In regards to the tomes that increase your stats (manual of gainful exercise and all that), will those bonuses stack with your bonuses that you get from increasing stats at level up and from wishes?

Both tomes and wishes give inherent bonuses, so they don't stack. The every-four-levels increase is unnamed (I don't think it's actually a 'bonus' - it's an increase to the base value), so it will stack with either.

J

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Gah I meant bladesingers advance with their own spelllist. Don't know how I types spell sword all those times and didn't notice it.

 

[Avatar28]

All right, another question. What is the armor called that reduces your armor and dex penalties? I looked in the DMG but coudn't find it, but I believe there's some sort of enchantment that can be put on the armor that does that. If you know what I'm talking about, where can I find it at?

Chun-Tzu is right about one thing. I've never played a mid to high level spellcaster before. Heck, my wife, who's playing a cleric, has never played a cleric before period. So regardless, I suspect that I won't be able to play this character very effectively. I do have the spell cheatsheet printed off from the T&B web enhancement, perhaps that will help for my character.

If someone's got some better suggestions, I'm certainly open to them. I don't mind trying new things, though I would like to keep the same general character concept I described above.

Here are the scores I rolled up (yes, I'm bored here at work) using the standard 4d6 method 13, 14, 18, 17, 16, 12.
Actually I rolled twice, 4 of the scores on both were the same, 18, 17, 16, 13. Also got a 9 and an 11, but I had rerolled 1s the first try (we did that in one of our campaigns), so I resolved to do it properly (without rerolling 1s) and just take whatever it gave me. Surprise, surprise, I did better.

Those are my level 1 starting points. Once I figure out which way fate is going to guide my intrepid hero, I can figure out where to assign. Damn I hate decisions.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The bladesinger is a fighter who uses magic to help him fight. If you go bladesinger, you should probably do something like:

Ftr 6/Wiz 1/Bladesinger 10/Weaponmaster 3

The Spellsword is good for combining fighting abilities with magic. If you want to do this, decide what kind of armor you want to wear and take just enough spellsword levels to eliminate spell failure.
Something like
Ftr 1/Wiz 7/Spellsword 4/Sacred Exorcist 8 would work (although I'm not sure how it'd go with Epic Levels. . . .)

Alternately, you could go for a more melee oriented spellsword
Ftr 4/Wiz 4/Spellsword 10/Weapon master (or knight protector or Holy Liberator) 2 or something

The only one that will hold a candle to a Wiz 20 or Wiz 6/Candlecaster 4/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 or other full progression arcanist in terms of arcane spellpower is the Ftr 1/Wiz 7/Spellsword 4/Sacred Exorcist 8 who will have 9th level spells in addition to moderate fighting abilities and good hit points. (And a good AC).

 

[Shard O'Glase]

All right, another question. What is the armor called that reduces your armor and dex penalties? I looked in the DMG but coudn't find it, but I believe there's some sort of enchantment that can be put on the armor that does that. If you know what I'm talking about, where can I find it at?

.

There may be an enchantment in BoEM 1 or 2, but the one in the core books is not an enchantment but a metal. Mithral, it raises dex cap by 2 lowers dex penalty by 2 and lowers arcane failure by 10%, oh and it has a beter harness/hp.