Wolfgang Baur Re: Copper Bits and Gleaming Hoards

[Gold Roger]

See, I think he sets the tone with that sentence, precisely, so he *can* point up the unusual treasures as *different* in some way. Again, not necessarily a good or bad thing but it does seem to be his approach and I believe it is worth noting.

Well, I think the first posts in this thread show how highlighting the quote has influenced the discussion by puting it itself into the focus of the discussion rather than the actual thread.

I guess we could discuss about this for pages, but that would just derail this thread (further, imho). So I'll just leave it here.

 

[Mark CMG]

Well, I think the first posts in this thread show how highlighting the quote has influenced the discussion by puting it itself into the focus of the discussion rather than the actual thread.

I guess we could discuss about this for pages, but that would just derail this thread (further, imho). So I'll just leave it here.

Feel free to expand on the other points you made in your first post that have nothing to do with the part of the discussion you'd rather not highlight. Personally, I've tried to be both succinct and accepting that other viewpoints and approaches are valid. I don't believe that is either unhealthy or a derailment of the thread.

 

[Felon]

Time to file away another lame designer comment akready? Wasn't it just week that they did that in the "Roll Initiative" article? Of course, just like that article, this one has plenty of redeeming content. They seem to feel that a good way to kick off an article is to matter-of-factly present the Monty Haul hack-n-slash mentality as being the core mindset of D&D.

I like the closing statement a lot more:

Some players enjoy intricate roleplaying, others prefer rounds of complex combat, but everybody loves treasure. Make sure that the treasures you design into an adventure include some standard loot and some unusual items, and your game will be richer for it.

 

[Corsair]

I vote that Mark is being needlessly nitpicky in trying to incite a discussion. I ninja'd this from another thread:

Beyond this, does it actually matter? If the fun of the game is to explore dungeons, kill monsters, loot the corpses and sell the stuff back to town, does it actually matter if the PCs aren't "heroes" in a more classical sense of the word?

This thread was about ten foot poles. Considering everyone started replying to OP without challenging him on this point, I'd contend that if anything, Wolfgang's assertion was either correct, or close enough to not be a big deal.

 

[Mark CMG]

I vote that Mark is being needlessly nitpicky in trying to incite a discussion.

LOL


Okay, okay! Discuss other parts of the article already!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Ah challenge treasures and appraisable treasures. There was a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying game that I ran where the party leader routinely gave away the most valuable treasures out of pure laziness and ignorance - even when the other players were going 'No! Don't do it!' Giving away the cask of Brettonian brandy to an NPC ogre....

False treasures - when the PCs realize that the painting is merely a forgery of a great work, which becomes a semi/pseudo/sort of challenge treasure when the rogue pawns it off on another sucker.....

And Mr. Bauer did miss one last group of treasures - expendables. Scrolls, wands, potions - all items that wil be used up during the course of adventures, but also make the job of adventuring more enjoyable. I have seen a wizard hoard his wand of Fireballs with one charge remaining from 2nd level to 4th, always saving it for that special occassion when it might save the party's bacon... and darned glad he did when the PCs were facing otherwise an otherwise overpowering number of foes.

I really like the idea of the Treasure Curve, I have been doing something similar for monsters since an article by Monte Cook in Dungeon Magazine, so why not do it with treasure as well?

Over all, I would say that it was a good article.

The Auld Grump

 

[Gold Roger]

A more in depth commentary:

The Treasure Curve: I like to pool treasure and place it as appropiate for the game. I don't exactly know what I should think of the Curve though, I don't like claculating treasure distribution, but I guess it makes for a good guideline, just like CR and EL systems.

Hidden and Buried Treasures: A classic that no game should miss. I actually don't do this often enough, so I'm happy this article reminded me.

False Treasures: Nice to throw people a curve. As long as a good degree of real treasure is present this can be a nice little courveball. I'd pool in cursed items in this group. False treasure's are actually additional challenges, so imho there might be some "extra reward" in beating (distinguishing) them.

Challenge Treasures and Appraisable Treasures: I think this is where much of the meat of this article is. There's some great stuff in there I would have never thought of on my own. Special "raw material" that can be cashed in either through hard work/imaginative thinking or to reward certain skills. The possibilities of challenge treasure are almost without limit, while appraisable treasure will definitely affect my game with two characters that are really good in knowledge (history). But what I really love about this is that these kinds of treasures reveal and indulge the campaign world in a way that directly involves the players.

Land and Status: Two plot-hook-astic kinds of classic reward one should never forget.

Plot Coupons: Information, Clues and Keys: I agree that these make for poor treasure. And I agree if the DM requires them for the game to progress that's kinda lame to. But as either plot hooks or optional things I think they are great.

Two examples:

1) In the process of rooting out some bandits the PC's find a pirat map to a great treasure. If this is the only loot-lame. But if it's found among other stuff the PC's might or might not go after that Pirate bounty.

2) Rooting out a MBEG the PC's find some part of a weapon or somesuch. They later learn that the weapon together could help them against the BBEG, but isn't required. So they have the choice how to fight the guy.

What I missed was Combination Treasure: What, if the PC's decide to sell of said part of a weapon? What if they find a land grant they might either sell or use to take said land as theirs? Some tips on combinating this tips would have rounded the article very well.

 

[Felon]

Plot Coupons: Information, Clues and Keys: I agree that these make for poor treasure. And I agree if the DM requires them for the game to progress that's kinda lame to. But as either plot hooks or optional things I think they are great.

Sorry, despite Wolfgang's matter-of-fact (but unsupported) attitude, I just don't see what's so "poor" or "lazy" about so-called "plot coupons". Nor do I think Wolfgang's in a position to know what my players will appreciate. Why not a piece of a map or a puzzle? Every adventure and every mission that makes up an adventure requires some kind of objective. It keeps them from jumping straight to the end, or just going nowhere.

 

[Gold Roger]

Sorry, despite Wolfgang's matter-of-fact (but unsupported) attitude, I just don't see what's so "poor" or "lazy" about so-called "plot coupons". Nor do I think Wolfgang's in a position to know what my players will appreciate. Why not a piece of a map or a puzzle? Every adventure and every mission that makes up an adventure requires some kind of objective. It keeps them from jumping straight to the end, or just going nowhere.

The only thing poor about is is it's quality as treasure- i.e. "reward". Anything poor or lazy about it depends imho on the way it is used. And as far as I remember the article doesn't damn it in every instance either (I think it says something to the effect of "some adventures need that kind of stuff". It's to late and I'm to tired over here right now to search for an exact quote though).

 

[Kishin]

I haven't really been a fan of most of Wolfgang Baur's articles thus far, honestly, but he does occasionally make a good point about Plot Coupons. If I wanted to collect keycards to go through a plot area, I'd play any number of PC or video games. There are better and more creative ways to funnel PCs in a direction you want them to go without playing a glorified version of Where's Waldo.

Sorry, despite Wolfgang's matter-of-fact (but unsupported) attitude, I just don't see what's so "poor" or "lazy" about so-called "plot coupons". Nor do I think Wolfgang's in a position to know what my players will appreciate. Why not a piece of a map or a puzzle? Every adventure and every mission that makes up an adventure requires some kind of objective. It keeps them from jumping straight to the end, or just going nowhere.

It also, as Baur implies, railroads them. They have to carry things out in a certain fashion, or they won't be able to progress. A piece of a map is a great starting point to an adventure, but needing to collect seven fragments of one in the giant hedge maze outside the Temple of Eternal Awesome in order to proceed inside is kinda obnoxious.

I will agree with you about Baur's attitude. I can't stand the way he writes in these articles. He comes off like he's god's gift to adventure design.