Wolfgang Baur Re: Copper Bits and Gleaming Hoards

[Conaill]

You don't think his point is compelling? That the majority of gamers out there want fat loot for their characters?

I would seriously hope not! And even if it were, I would never want to design a roleplaying system to further encourage this thrend.

Perhaps I'm biased by having spent the first 3+ of my formative RPG years playing GURPS and various other non-D&D games in a very active gaming community where getting "phat loot" was NOT on anyone's mind. But I, and many other gamers I know, play to have *fun*, to go on great adventures, to Slay the Beast and Rescue the Maiden. Getting a new gadget can be fun, but I am not my sword... It is *me* who accomplishes these great tasks, it's not just because I have a mighty artifact which could make any peasant a demigod. And yes, I'd like there to be some way for my character to grow and develop. Maybe he learns a new skill or two over the course of several months. Or maybe his face will be scarred for life, to remind him of that epic battle where he came this close to losing his life and his honour both.

To me, an enjoyable roleplaying campaign is much closer to a novel in that sense. I'm not going to be disapointed in a fantasy novel, just because the hero is scarcely more powerful at the end of the novel than at its beginning. Or because the protagonist didn't gain fat loot during the course of the novel. In fact, I would argue that these factors are almost entirely irrelevant to my enjoyment of the novel.

I have to admit that I've found the "phat loot and XP" mentality to be much more common among the various D&D groups I've played with in later years. And I definitely see how addictive this style of play can be - I've noticed I'm feeling less and less embarrassed at being showered with gold and jewelry for doing what a hero or adventurer is supposed to do anyway, or of getting yet another character level when I haven't even gotten used to all the new powers I'd gotten last time. And I can see how someone who grew up with this mindset could wind up thinking that's what is essential for a great game. But as I said, it's not an attitude I would want to encourage any further, let alone use it as a basis for game design...

 

[Hussar]

Conail, this has been the basis for D&D since day 1. Kill the creature and steal its lunch money. There's a VERY good reason that just about every creature in the Monster Manual (in any edition) carries loot. Sometimes two or three times standard as well. Warhammer Fantasy was not about this. But, D&D is. Its not something that needs to be encouraged; it's something that's been hardwired into the game.

To me, an enjoyable roleplaying campaign is much closer to a novel in that sense. I'm not going to be disapointed in a fantasy novel, just because the hero is scarcely more powerful at the end of the novel than at its beginning. Or because the protagonist didn't gain fat loot during the course of the novel. In fact, I would argue that these factors are almost entirely irrelevant to my enjoyment of the novel.

Yet, it is a very, very rare heroic fantasy novel where the hero is not more powerful at the end than at the beginning and doesn't pick up all sorts of fat loot along the way. Bilbo finds an artifact and a honking giant diamond. Conan finds more treasure (and loses it as well) than most people see in three lifetimes. The four children in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe are full warriors with hugely powerful items at the end. Arthur yanks a sword out of a stone and becomes king. I could go on, but, I think I've made my point.

Heroic fantasy itself is about the loot. Not entirely about the loot of course. But, loot is definately there.

 

[Conaill]

Conail, this has been the basis for D&D since day 1. Kill the creature and steal its lunch money.

I know.

Doesn't mean I have to *like* it. Nor does it mean that that is what makes a good game. Or for that matter, that those are the only reasons why most people play the game, as Wolfgang implies.

 

[D'karr]

I know.

Doesn't mean I have to *like* it. Nor does it mean that that is what makes a good game. Or for that matter, that those are the only reasons why most people play the game, as Wolfgang implies.

Interestingly enough D&D is still the big kid in the block even if the "kill monster, take its loot, lather, rinse, repeat" mechanic is part of the game.

The original designers hit a homerun with one of the basic premises of the game; rewards (advancement and loot) are very important. I'd venture to say even integral to the game and they are a big reason for the game's popularity.

 

[Hussar]

I know.

Doesn't mean I have to *like* it. Nor does it mean that that is what makes a good game. Or for that matter, that those are the only reasons why most people play the game, as Wolfgang implies.

I'd point out a couple of things. First, after some thirty years of D&D, kill stuff and take it's treasure, IMHO, has proven itself to be a "good game". If it wasn't, I don't think D&D would be quite as popular as it is. The fact that the majority of players play it that way, pretty much points to the idea that people think that it is, in fact, a good game.

Sure, it might not be the only reason, but, it is a very, very prevalent one.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

"Woot, I got this really nifty cool magic sword."
"Oh, you mean I have to put the sword in that glowy pool to move things along?"
"Hey, my magic sword is gone."

DM: Yes, but now you know the location of the Head of Vecna!

Option 2 is - Player: Well, blow that for a lark then, at least this way I get to keep me cool sword!
DM: But, me adventure?
Player: Sorry bloke, but a bird in the hand and all that.

The Auld Grump

 

[Conaill]

So here's a conundrum:

If loot and XP are so important, then why do people enjoy (non-RPGA) Con games?

 

[D'karr]

So here's a conundrum:

If loot and XP are so important, then why do people enjoy (non-RPGA) Con games?

Because people at a CON might try out some things that they not normally get to play. The fact that you're only going to be at the Con for 1-4 days makes it very easy to go for pick up games, etc. The fact that people play and enjoy other games does not invalidate the fact that rewards are important in D&D and that they account for some of the game's popularity.

To top it off the RPGA play has grown in size in the last couple of years. I believe the numbers were up about 5% from last year. At Gencon this year they even started running games on a 24 hour schedule. And most events were sold out long before the deadline date for pre-registration.

I'm a gamer, I enjoy all kinds of games. So I have no problem playing other games. So there is no conundrum as you say.

 

[Mystery Man]

So here's a conundrum:

If loot and XP are so important, then why do people enjoy (non-RPGA) Con games?

Because they're wierd.

 

[painandgreed]

Fair enough I suppose. OTOH, railroading is generally considered a bad thing and plot coupons are railroading writ large. Stating something that many people consider to be true isn't exactly out of line. If you look at examples of modules that are nearly universally condemned as railroads, the majority contain plot coupons. Modules which are generally considered to be great adventures by and large don't. So, it's not out of line, IMO, to consider plot coupons to be lame.

Or at the very least, to consider plot coupons as treasure to be lame. This is the point he's making. Don't shortchange the party on the treasure they've earned simply to give the party the key to the next adventure. If the adventure uses plot coupons, then they should be kept entirely separate from treasure considerations, particularly if the plot coupons are elements the party doesn't get to keep.

"Woot, I got this really nifty cool magic sword."
"Oh, you mean I have to put the sword in that glowy pool to move things along?"
"Hey, my magic sword is gone."

Well, it's only railroading if the players aren't allowed to leave the plot if they want. If they have the choice to take the cool magic sword and split then it's not really railroading even if they do suffer consequences of doing such. Also, one would expect that using such plot coupons would return an even greater reward. The design issues don't really come from using plot coupons but not rewarding proper rewards in either XP, magic or gold for using them as an expendable treasure.

As for the original statement, the author discusses non-monitary rewards as phat loot which covers most of the RP issues that characters fight for.