Woo-hoo! Heroes of Horror preview!!

[Mouseferatu]

Wow. That sounds pretty cool. So, is it cleric-based or wizard based?

As written, it's an arcane class, viable for bards, sorcerers, or wizards. I don't imagine it would be too difficult to modify the prereqs for a divine variant, though.

 

[BryonD]

can even invoke fear effects on people who are normally immune, such as paladins, under some circumtsances.

Can you speak to this a little more?
I'm in the camp that really strongly dislikes the whole "even if normally immune" stuff. (as previously discussed in Sandstorm and Frostburn threads, and maybe other places) For one it gets into strange logic: Can you get immunity to fear that ignores immunity? When does that stop? Also my wife is playing a Anpur right now. Does the +2 vs fear still apply? If so why does a small bonus vs fear persist when a total immunity is reduced to nothing at all?

Also, I think it is anti-fun to just hose a player's special abilities.

Anyway, I've already bought the book, it just has not arrived yet.
Skipping a feat in the other books was no big deal. Will I need to blow off a whole PClass this time?

 

[M.L. Martin]

Can you speak to this a little more?
I'm in the camp that really strongly dislikes the whole "even if normally immune" stuff. (as previously discussed in Sandstorm and Frostburn threads, and maybe other places) For one it gets into strange logic: Can you get immunity to fear that ignores immunity? When does that stop? Also my wife is playing a Anpur right now. Does the +2 vs fear still apply? If so why does a small bonus vs fear persist when a total immunity is reduced to nothing at all?

I picked up the Game Trade Magazine with the sample pages from HoH yesterday, and the Dread Witch writeup is included.

At 4th level (out of 5), "your fear spells are now so potent that they can even effect individuals normally immune to fear, such as paladins, although the target still gains a saving throw to resist the spell's effect. Only a target whose HD exceed your caster level by 4 or more is immune to your mastery of terror. For instance, if you are a sorcerer 7/dread witch 4 (overall caster level 10), a paladin of 14th level or higher is immune to your fear spells."


Matthew L. Martin

 

[BryonD]

Thanks.

That's certainly better than I thought it could be.
I'll still think about it, but that sounds pretty tweakable.

BTW, the book sounds really good! Don't let me asking about one concern be misleading......

 

[Vocenoctum]

Does the +2 vs fear still apply? If so why does a small bonus vs fear persist when a total immunity is reduced to nothing at all?

Also, I think it is anti-fun to just hose a player's special abilities.

Heh, it's funny. The paladin could lose his own immunity to fear, while providing a +4 bonus to everyone within 10'?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Thanks.

That's certainly better than I thought it could be.
I'll still think about it, but that sounds pretty tweakable.

BTW, the book sounds really good! Don't let me asking about one concern be misleading......

I actually agree with you in general principles, at least to a large extent. I'm not overly fond of the Sandstorm/Frostburn feats that allow fire/cold spells that ignore fire/cold immunity.

But in my mind, the difference is someting an inherent to a race or creature vs. a class ability that is, even if it doesn't have a number attached, arguably based on level or power. That's why I designed the dread witch ability to work on the same general scale as Uncanny Dodge, which sort of does the same thing--that is, renders a character immune to an ability used by foes below a certain level.

All that said, if you wanted to remove that ability from the PrC, I don't imagine it would be hard. It's one ability out of many, and you could easily replace it with some other bonus--perhaps a boost to fear-based caster level, in addition to the DC boost the class already gets.

 

[Vocenoctum]

But in my mind, the difference is someting an inherent to a race or creature vs. a class ability that is, even if it doesn't have a number attached, arguably based on level or power. That's why I designed the dread witch ability to work on the same general scale as Uncanny Dodge, which sort of does the same thing--that is, renders a character immune to an ability used by foes below a certain level.

I think the problem there is that Improved Uncanny Dodge resists unless they're 4 levels higher than you. With the Fear power, the 4 level thing is on the side of the power, not the resistance.

Basically, a paladin of equal level will be scared, and even a paladin slightly higher level than you will be scared. I think the resistance should be the one on the higher end of things. A paladin getting scared by a witch 4 levels higher than him might be okay, but 2 levels lower than him? Not as much, IMO.

But, that's an easy change, and I doubt any of my PC's would take the class anyway.

The other thing that does need to be addressed is the lack of a bonus on the save. If the paladin is no longer immune to fear, but doesn't get the bonus to fear saves that he gives to others, for instance.

I'd think a better method would be to simply say "using this ability changes an immunity to fear into a +10 bonus on the will save." Or something of the sort.

 

[Tuzenbach]

So, there couldn't have been a better name than "Dread Necromancer"? How about:

High Necromancer
Arch Necromancer
Prime Necromancer
Dark Necromancer
True Necromancer
Eldritch Necromancer
Arcane Necromancer
Black Necromancer
Absolute Necromancer
etc...........

 

[BryonD]

I actually agree with you in general principles, at least to a large extent. I'm not overly fond of the Sandstorm/Frostburn feats that allow fire/cold spells that ignore fire/cold immunity.

But in my mind, the difference is someting an inherent to a race or creature vs. a class ability that is, even if it doesn't have a number attached, arguably based on level or power. That's why I designed the dread witch ability to work on the same general scale as Uncanny Dodge, which sort of does the same thing--that is, renders a character immune to an ability used by foes below a certain level.

Agreed from a logic POV. But there is also the POV that hosing a character's power stinks to the player, regardless of source.

All that said, if you wanted to remove that ability from the PrC, I don't imagine it would be hard. It's one ability out of many, and you could easily replace it with some other bonus--perhaps a boost to fear-based caster level, in addition to the DC boost the class already gets.

Yep, the quoted text makes it look that way. The uncanny dodge equivalence was obvious. So, off the top of my head, I'm thinking that I may extend that equivalence. The Uncanny Dodge requires a Rogue four levels higher in order to overcome the immunity. That is the opposite of the above (requiring the immunity to be four levels higher). If I switch it, I can have fear immune PCs generally stay immune, but have some weaker npcs get affected, to get the point across. win win for me.

FWIW, I use a bit of flavor that influences my perspective here. In my games Paladins are not immune to feeling fear. They are immune to all effects of fear. So they experience Dragon Fear, or whatever, they just shoulder on through their own mortal terror. You can not be brave without fear, afterall. Anyway, I don't see that as a house rule because it doesn't change the way anything actually works. But I think you may see how that flavor would run counter to any exception.

 

[VirgilCaine]

The touch I'm particularly proud of, though, is that she can use her own fear to empower her spells, or to cast extra spells, based on the severity of the fear effect that's been cast on her.

Sounds pretty cool. So she's immune to fear, herself, right?