D&D 5E World-Building DMs

[Sword of Spirit]

One thing that I see come up quite a bit online is a disagreement over how much setting control is appropriate for a DM to exercise. Usually it comes down to some people objecting to the idea of a DM setting up strict parameters without being flexible. It usually ends up with opponents of DM strictness essentially expressing that they think such DMs are selfish jerks, and are surprised anyone even wants to play with them.

As someone who is such a strict DM, this has continued to bother me because it’s quite contrary to my experiences as a DM or a player. Amazingly enough, my experience has been that players actually enjoy playing in such games.

I tried to address some of this in a thread on GMing as Fine Art over in the general RPG section, but it ended up becoming too much a semantic debate for me to continue to have interest in it.

So, lets instead look at it this way. How do you feel about playing D&D with a World-Building DM? A DM who builds a world with imagination and passion apart from any character concepts, and then invites you to come into and participate in it within its own parameters (which some might see as strict).

Of course, that question alone adds nothing to the discussion, because it just lets people identify which side of the “line” they are on. So let me rephrase it.

Would you enjoy playing a character in Westeros, DMed/GMed by George R. R. Martin? A character in Middle-Earth DMed/GMed by J. R. R. Tolkien?

Would you ask to play a cat-person or a wookie, or a kender? Would you ask them to redefine who could and could not use magic?

Replace those examples with any fantasy world you really like, and think about it.

I’m guessing the vast majority of people, if invited to play in such a situation, would gladly fit their character into the parameters.

Why not be willing to fit into another DM’s world in the same way?

Does your answer depend on whether the world was created with you (or your group) as a player as the intended audience, vs whether the world was already existing or created for a general audience of players beyond your group?

My gut tells me that the objections are, at their heart, more about believing the DM just isn’t going to create a very good world (or at least one you will like) than they are power-struggle issues.

 

[JohnLynch]

I would, but then I prefer a world in which to explore rather than a world to co-create with the DM. I'm always happy to fit within the framework a DM offers. If I don't think I'd enjoy it (and to be honest, I struggle to think of any restrictions in a setting resembling fantasy or science fiction that I would dislike, except maybe an anthromorphic animal setting) I'd simply opt to not play it (chances are if I don't like the sound of character creation I'm not going to enjoy the campaign itself). It's never happened thus far though.

 

[Shiroiken]

The best games are played in a world given life by its creator. I would love to play in the examples you've listed, as well as the original Greyhawk campaign under Gygax. When I build my games, I design a world (usually an adapted existing campaign setting) and often build a story to unfold as the characters explore the world.

I see nothing wrong with world creation by committee, but that's not for me. I've seen what happens when co-DMs have differing visions, and the game becomes a chaotic mess pretty quickly. If you were to add in the creative desires of the players as well... that just seems too messy for my tastes.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So, lets instead look at it this way. How do you feel about playing D&D with a World-Building DM? A DM who builds a world with imagination and passion apart from any character concepts, and then invites you to come into and participate in it within its own parameters (which some might see as strict).

Of course, that question alone adds nothing to the discussion, because it just lets people identify which side of the “line” they are on. So let me rephrase it.

Would you enjoy playing a character in Westeros, DMed/GMed by George R. R. Martin? A character in Middle-Earth DMed/GMed by J. R. R. Tolkien?

I'm largely indifferent to the world-building aspects. For me, (A)D&D is all about choices, not setting. As long as the DM doesn't expect me to get excited about his setting per se, I'll just cope with whatever he says are the setting assumptions. Of course, if he builds in a world which genuinely interests me then I will of course be interested in it.

So, no to Westeros, no to Middle Earth. (Or rather, yes I'd play, if he's a good DM, but the setting doesn't excite me and I find both of those authors quite boring so I don't have high hopes for their DMing.) Yes to Dresdenverse, yes to the Stormlight Archives/Cosmere (except neither setting works well with D&D; maybe GURPS though), yes to Codex Aliera.

If the DM says, "There are no dwarves in my world, and only elves can be wizards and they are rare, you have to roll 00 on percentile dice to be one," I will just say, "Okay" and roll those dice. (And I will accordingly expect NPC/monster wizards to be rare, and plan my tactics accordingly.)

 

[BoldItalic]

I'm on the "collaborative" side. Over the years, I've found that If I'm playing with a reasonably creative bunch of people, the world we weave between us will can be richer and more interesting than anything I might have created on my own. Yes, it may be messy and inconsistent but that's part of the charm, provided you are prepared to regard all knowledge of the world as possibly erroneous. If one PC is convinced that the mountains to the north are infested with snow demons, but another character claims "that's just a myth and my uncle has been there and he should know, shouldn't he?", you have the basis of an expedition to find out.

Would you enjoy playing a character in Westeros, DMed/GMed by George R. R. Martin? A character in Middle-Earth DMed/GMed by J. R. R. Tolkien?

To turn the question around: would you enjoy DMing a game in which both Martin and Tolkien were running PCs ?

 

[delericho]

To turn the question around: would you enjoy DMing a game in which both Martin and Tolkien were running PCs ?

Hell no. I'd give that about thirty minutes before GRRM's LE assassin viciously betrays and murders JRRT's NG halfling. Either one would probably be great; both together would be a disaster.

Now, if I had a chance to run a game for JRRT, CS Lewis, and the rest of the Inklings... I'd jump at that chance.

 

[delericho]

It usually ends up with opponents of DM strictness essentially expressing that they think such DMs are selfish jerks, and are surprised anyone even wants to play with them.

"If you want to run a game, I'm more than happy to play in it." It's funny how often that line resolves this particular complaint.

How do you feel about playing D&D with a World-Building DM? A DM who builds a world with imagination and passion apart from any character concepts, and then invites you to come into and participate in it within its own parameters (which some might see as strict).

The truth is that most such DMs, myself included, just aren't as creative and inspired as we like to think. I'll happily play in a "world builder's" game, but my experience will depend on their skill as a DM rather than their skill as a world-builder in almost every case.

Would you enjoy playing a character in Westeros, DMed/GMed by George R. R. Martin? A character in Middle-Earth DMed/GMed by J. R. R. Tolkien?

Would you ask to play a cat-person or a wookie, or a kender? Would you ask them to redefine who could and could not use magic?

I might ask, but if the answer is "no" then I'll respect the parameters they set for their game.

 

[pemerton]

How do you feel about playing D&D with a World-Building DM? A DM who builds a world with imagination and passion apart from any character concepts, and then invites you to come into and participate in it within its own parameters (which some might see as strict).

<snip>

Would you enjoy playing a character in Westeros, DMed/GMed by George R. R. Martin? A character in Middle-Earth DMed/GMed by J. R. R. Tolkien?

<snip>

My gut tells me that the objections are, at their heart, more about believing the DM just isn’t going to create a very good world (or at least one you will like) than they are power-struggle issues.

For me as a player, there are three aspects to this. (I'll focus on Tolkien, because his are the works I'm relatively familiar with.)

(1) Most GMs aren't capable of creating a world as compelling as Middle Earth.

(2) LotR, the Hobbit and The Silmarillion aren't primarily about presenting a world. They're primarily about presenting stories, in which the world serves as a backdrop. As a RPGer, I'm more interested in stories than worlds.

(3) With a good GM, a brief (one-to-three session) series of episodes playing through his/her story can be fun. Pre-gens work well for this, because (with a good GM) the pre-gens will be hooked into the story. As a player, my function becomes one of emoting my character rather than making fundamental choices that shape the plot (that's already been done for me). But I personally don't think this works well for an ongoing campaign.

I've seen what happens when co-DMs have differing visions, and the game becomes a chaotic mess pretty quickly. If you were to add in the creative desires of the players as well... that just seems too messy for my tastes.

I've never found this to be the case.

I've had players create mentors for PCs, families, secret organisations, social systems (for cities, dwarves, orcs etc), gods, myths, and other stuff that I'm not thinking of at the moment. As a GM, it's not that hard to incorporate this stuff into the challenges with which I confront the players (via their PCs).

 

[Waterbizkit]

I feel that part of the reason you may see a disconnect between players and a "world building" DM stems from misunderstanding the reasons for the restrictions a DM might impose. If players feel like a DM is creating these restrictions based purely on a personal dislike for a particular class or race or what have you, then that can lead to negative feelings permeating the proceedings moving forward.

Now, that's not to say that the DM isn't perfectly within their right to make restrictions based on their personal likes and dislikes, but it is the sort of thing that can lead to conflict. If I really like playing Paladins for example, but a DM says they're not in his world because of "reason x" and I even get an inkling that it's really just because he doesn't like them, then that may put me off. Humans are fickle creatures and can often take criticisms of something they like as a direct personal affront which will lead things down a bad path.

This is why open and honest communication is always a necessity. Talking things out beforehand and explaining the reasoning behind all the world building decisions can go a long way to helping a player understand why their favorite character concept might not be appropriate for a given setting. Misunderstandings will still happen and people will still sometimes feel like they're getting a raw deal for no good reason, but that's where a simple "agree to disagree" and a parting of ways, even if only temporary, can be the best solution.

 

[fjw70]

I have wanted to start a game where the PCs create their characters (atleast the general concepts) then create the world to match the characters. For example, the main races in the world would be whatever races the players picked for their PCs.