5.5E World Building Magic, Magic Items, The DMG, and joined up thinking.

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
If you're inventing the magic item, can't you also decide on the price? I'm confused about where the problem is.
I can but the price disparity between what the spell cost to make permanent and a magic item that does a similar thing, as presented in the rules is very large in both time required and gold pieces. That it would be better if these costs would be similar across different parts of the rules.
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
@UngainlyTitan
I do think Teleportation Circle should have had a clause that if you are merely recasting it to make it permanent, it doesn't consume a material component.

If you don't want to change it, you could simply add something that modifies it. Perhaps making a teleportation circle permanent on a ley line only takes a month, or only a week if cast on a nexus of ley lines.

I do prefer some impediments to permanent circles, otherwise it could be hard to justify why they aren't everywhere. Common teleportation circles would be fine for the right setting, but certainly not for every setting.
 

Oofta

Legend
No monsters, but got chased by a mother brown bear. Everything else yes. Carried food, bedding, shelter, tools; everything but one days water with us every day for 10-20 miles hiking per day depending upon our objective.

Look, I get it if you haven't done something similar, that you think one might deteriorate over time. But there is plenty of hard evidence as well as anecdotes like mine that people can live and thrive under much harsher conditions than travelling through wilderness. Yes, over long periods of time at above a sustainable pace, sure, one can get run down.

Go ahead and work out a system of stamina reduction or exhaustion to fit your vision But as others have said, very few players are going to care about such or enjoy such an experience. You do you.

I actually found that hiking gets easier after a couple of days because you become accustomed to it.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
@UngainlyTitan
I do think Teleportation Circle should have had a clause that if you are merely recasting it to make it permanent, it doesn't consume a material component.

If you don't want to change it, you could simply add something that modifies it. Perhaps making a teleportation circle permanent on a ley line only takes a month, or only a week if cast on a nexus of ley lines.

I do prefer some impediments to permanent circles, otherwise it could be hard to justify why they aren't everywhere. Common teleportation circles would be fine for the right setting, but certainly not for every setting.
Ya see, my issue is not fixing any particular spell. I can do than anyway I want, it is the fact that if one looks at the cost of a permanent teleport circle using the method provided in the spell (and similar permanent effects from other spells) and compare that cost of making a magic item providing a spell effect of a similar level and compare that with the cost of creating a scroll of that level, the prices are all over the place.

It is obvious that the designers never though about these elements as a whole.

If there was some common logic connecting the various elements, it would be useful for DM's to extrapolate to new things the player might think of. As it is, it pretty much looks like who ever cooked un the individual element, came up with a costing out of thin air and no other logic.

From my perspective scrolls are very expensive when compared to magic items and potions.
And the permanent spell effects seem very costly also, though I will admit I have not trawled to books for every example and done an analysis just a few caught my eye.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Ya see, my issue is not fixing any particular spell. I can do than anyway I want, it is the fact that if one looks at the cost of a permanent teleport circle using the method provided in the spell (and similar permanent effects from other spells) and compare that cost of making a magic item providing a spell effect of a similar level and compare that with the cost of creating a scroll of that level, the prices are all over the place.

It is obvious that the designers never though about these elements as a whole.

If there was some common logic connecting the various elements, it would be useful for DM's to extrapolate to new things the player might think of. As it is, it pretty much looks like who ever cooked un the individual element, came up with a costing out of thin air and no other logic.

From my perspective scrolls are very expensive when compared to magic items and potions.
And the permanent spell effects seem very costly also, though I will admit I have not trawled to books for every example and done an analysis just a few caught my eye.
The magic items creation rules weren't until Xanathar's. So the person who made Teleport Circle couldn't have based it on that.

As for magic item creation, it may arguably be quicker and less expensive, but it requires a formula (access to which is entirely DM facing) as well as a component from an appropriate CR 9-12 creature. Meaning that there could be multiple quests involved. So in many ways crafting the item is still more involved.
 

I conceptually like the worldbuilding ideas found in spells. However, they also hammer worlds into following the same trend. Teleportation Circles in my Greyhawk are pretty rare, and all heavily guarded secrets. Having the PC just automatically get 2 is problematic for me, since it poses a security risk. I worked around it with the player, but the issue remains for future campaigns.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
The magic items creation rules weren't until Xanathar's. So the person who made Teleport Circle couldn't have based it on that.
No, but the person writing Xanathar's should have been aware of the spell costs.
As for magic item creation, it may arguably be quicker and less expensive, but it requires a formula (access to which is entirely DM facing) as well as a component from an appropriate CR 9-12 creature. Meaning that there could be multiple quests involved. So in many ways crafting the item is still more involved.
And potentially more interesting, depending on the quest.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
No, but the person writing Xanathar's should have been aware of the spell costs.
I don't think it would have made sense to base magic item creation costs on a spell like Teleport Circle. Though, like I said, I think that the cost should have been lower by waiving repeated material costs, similar to other spells that can be made permanent.

In any case, my point was that the cost of creating magic items is arguably higher than just the time and cost listed, given that questing is likely to be required. The DM can even outright choose not to allow crafting by simply by making formulas unavailable.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I don't think it would have made sense to base magic item creation costs on a spell like Teleport Circle. Though, like I said, I think that the cost should have been lower by waiving repeated material costs, similar to other spells that can be made permanent.

In any case, my point was that the cost of creating magic items is arguably higher than just the time and cost listed, given that questing is likely to be required. The DM can even outright choose not to allow crafting by simply by making formulas unavailable.
So is it fair to say that you are therefore largely contented in the current state of play with respect to creating, magic items, permanent magical effects and so forth.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
So is it fair to say that you are therefore largely contented in the current state of play with respect to creating, magic items, permanent magical effects and so forth.
Yeah, content would be an apt descriptor. It's not that I think there isn't potential for improvement, but it does at least meet my criteria for good enough.
 

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