Worldbuilding, nonhumans, and the inaccurarcy of Earth parallels

fusangite said:
Diamond's reasoning is deeply flawed.

He argues for over-arching rules based on single unique cases. He is essentially saying, "Because it happened this way this time, this is the way it must happen."

His conclusions are kind of pre-determined by the premise he lays out in the prolouge where he flat out states that his agenda is to produce a flow of history that results in the modern world without ever casting a single aspersion on any people or culture.

That having been said it's still a fascinating book and aught to be required reading for anyone doing world construction. I think it's great fun to read too. ;)
 

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Forgive me for being the first to ask this, but why such a feverish hatred towards Earth parallels?

Am I the only one who likes steampunk? Seriously?
 

ProfessorCirno said:
Forgive me for being the first to ask this, but why such a feverish hatred towards Earth parallels?

Am I the only one who likes steampunk? Seriously?

I can only speak for myself, and this is just pure personal opinion, but when it comes to D&D, I have a profound loathing of Earth parallels.

To me, that's just not D&D. In my personal vision, it's not D&D unless you have Tolkien elves, orcs and dragons, Vancian spellcasting, a complete and utter lack of gunpowder and firearms, and a quasi-permanent technological freeze. Note that I said my personal vision; what other authors and DMs do with their versions of the D&D settings is entirely their business, and their visions are no less valid than mine.

Tieflings, dragonborn, and espeically warforged are similarly not part of the D&D lexicon, as they all introduce concepts that have no place in my version of the world.

I have a very specific belief system, that applies only to me and my own personal work, about what D&D and Greyhawk are and are not. I don't game, so I don't have to take any players into account, and so I can keep things the way they are.

Now, this doesn't mean I automatically loathe steampunk; I just think that steampunk and D&D don't mix. I love the Final Fantasy games, and when I want things like airships and firearms in my RPGs, that's where I go.

I know it sounds crazy, but I have all my various fantasy settings and game mythos established in my head with what is and is not acceptable; something that would be great for D&D wouldn't fly in a Final Fantasy-themed game, for example. Similarly, flying machines and giant walking birds used as transportation don't mesh with D&D-they're Final Fantasy tropes through and through.

Again, let me say that this only applies to me and my own writing. If you want flying machines that run on steam power in your games, that's great-I'm sure the experience is enhanced by it. If I were playing in your game, I'd accept it too-you're the DM, and I'd be playing in your setting. Like I've said to my buddy GVDammerung, in his Greyhawk game I'd play the barbarian who's bewildered and confused by all the weird technology he has running around in his game.

Just my two coppers on my attempts to explain just why I don't like these things, and why, if I did actually run a game, one of the basic ground rules I'd establish is that there be no firearms, and that the players, no matter what they do, will find they just can't seem to make them.
 

...Man, I don't know. Final Fantasy as steampunk?

I'd have used Arcanum as my example, personally ;)

But yeah, I can see how you would have your vision of D&D and keep it seperate from other stuff. I've just seen such a...well, such a BACKLASH against any signs of "realism" or "simulationism" that it honestly confuses me. Very often from the same people who say other races should be humans in funny suits, since that makes it more believable.
 

ProfessorCirno said:
Forgive me for being the first to ask this, but why such a feverish hatred towards Earth parallels?
Nothing wrong with Earth parallels by themselves, no. But there's a long and annoying history in fantasy gaming of trying to make "Totally faithful late-14th-century Medieval Europe, except with monsters, multiple sapient races, magic and polytheism!". (Or the way TSR kept cramming real-world cultures into Forgotten Realms during the worst days of the 2e. The Rashemeni are not Russians, damn it!)
 

Andor said:
Gunpowder and industry are unrelated.

Yes. I ban both.

Water mills, wind mills, etc. - all good. Better tools, of course.

But those elements won't be combined into a industrial revolution in my game, not even - or especially not - if combined with magic.
 

It is just because it is so much more effort to start with a situation (magic, monsters and dungeons) and try and create a society that is actually vaguely realistic without using historical parallels; it involves lots of illustrations as well, to show clothing, buildings etc.

Then you have the problem that it is unfamiliar and so new players and DMs don't "buy in" quickly and so a new setting really needs novels to support the line. Not easy.

It needs more people to get tired of the same old psuedo-medieval stuff, the trouble is, I really dislike magictech like Eberron etc and want something NON-historical but vaguely realistic with cultures, governments and religons (fleshed out) that don't resemble anything done before. Very difficult, but maybe once people start absorbing the possibilities of having adventures set in a world where magic is natural enough that fantastic terrain can exist, then maybe we will get something really great.
 

Andor; I slightly disagree with you about industry because humans had waterwheels for thousands of years but never developed industry; not really as we understand it in the modern world.

Industry is not just about the technology you have; it is a way of thinking that says that machines can replace men, that speed of production is important, that organisation is paramount etc etc. Industry relies upon science not magic, superstition or tradition. It is the point where art (craftsman) becomes science (mass production).

It is a very modern phenomena. The Romans had tremendous agricultural and building expertise but most of the time, there was nothing like the great factories that we see when industry is paramount and mass production is king.

THIS I believe, is why industry and even industrial magic are imcompatible with D&D; because it brings with it a whole host of modern thinking that, for me at least, spoils the essence of fantasy.

I would go so far as to classify anything with significant industry and technology as Science Fantasy and not pure Fantasy.
 

Hey CSL.

Another thought provoking thread. I'm just going to respond to your initial post so sorry if I go over stuff that's already covered by other respondants.

Speaking as an inveterate world builder the questions you've asked are important ones to me. But I'd disagree with the answers you've come up with.

to discuss a couple of your specific examples first:

If important natural resources are guarded by Gobbos (et. al.) either people will trade for them or take them by force. Or, conversely, the Gobbos with their monopoly on important natural resources will come to dominate the humans (economically, militarily, culturally). And if there can be cross-cultural information exchange between Dwarves and humans why not Gobbos and humans? It won't be all war just because Goblins are supposed to be evil. Least ways not in my games.

This would be a good time to segueway into racial determinism in RPGs. I'll try to be brief. As has been pointed out this idea of racial determinism has its roots in good old fashioned 19thC racism. It continues into modern fantasy through the likes of LotR and Conan.* I don't use racial determinism in my games much. Oh the basic tropes are there: Orcs are big, rather violent and uncivilised but they're not necessarily evil or opposed to humanity. But I've gone on at great (read: interminable) length on this topic in other threads and will spare folks from it this time.

But I'm getting side tracked off your main point: a game world not changing.

It's a pretty common trope in fantasy that there 'were giants in those days.' By which I mean, there was a golden age in the past. Frequently things have changed over the centuries but in this case in a bad way.

Some games specifically go against this trope: the rising Empire, an age of glory opening, pushing back the darkness. All that ripe for adventure goodness. A common golden age sci-fi trope come to think of it.

There's been other suggestions for why people keep their game worlds more or less static. From different physics making industrial development difficult to magic making it unnecessary. Of the two I prefer the latter. **

Why develop a steam powered engine when magic does the job already and for less cost? There has to be a tangible reward for the effort of investing in a new technology. The society that invested it's resources (work hours, natural resource, financial, etc) into developing the coal powered steam engine would lose out to the society that had golem power. The only reason to switch over to steam engines would be if golem power proved less viable than coal powered steam. Maybe the golems go on strike or revolt and overthrow their squishy masters or, much more mundane, coal power works out more cost effective.

Ooh, there's a mini-campaign: The golems have been superceded by steam engines and are being 'decommisioned.' And since no-one likes to be euphamised the golems revolt. The PCs can either take the role of golem freedom fighters or Blade Runner-style golem killers. Would that fit into Eberron do you think? Does Eberron have unicorns?

My Dwarven campaign has a great deal of background material. I'll admit I've not given a lot of specific thought to Dwarven technological advances (or lack of same.) But thoughts I have had include: Dwarven reverence for the ancestors and the crafts (and culture in general) as passed down from ancient days encourage a certain cultural conservatism. The long life of the Dwarves also encourages cultural conservatism. There have been changes, but these are rather specific like bigger and better water wheels driving bigger and better machines: quantitative rather than qualitative. Not all changes I've considered have been tech. For instance I've had opera go out of style then come back in a few centuries later. Styles of sculpture and architecture have changed too. Although WHY I would bother to dream this up for a game in which it will never become important I can't say. Call me an 'inveterate world builder.' Or crazy, either is fair.

And as someone said above: half of human history had passed by the time Cyrus conquered the Medes. (!) Yet anyone from that time wouldn't be too out of place in middle ages Europe. Plows are basically still plows, swords are swords. King lives in big castle, peasant in small hovel. Monotheism.

The world changes very slowly. Technological change does gather momentum of course, but it takes a long time to build that momentum.

And here's a thought: many campaigns revolve around the PCs fighting to retain, or recreate, a romanticised, Fabian Socialist Utopia in the face of hostile change. There ya go, I've said it: PCs are agents of cultural conservatism. They're happy to maintain a status quo in which Kings live in castles and peasants in hovels as long as there's lots of phat lewt. Even the precocious, young farm-boy is happy to be a class traitor as long as he gets to marry the princess at the end of it! ;)

*The implications of real world racial determinism in Howard's stuff does make my modern, 21st C sensibilities crawl with discomfort.

** Although tech based on the 4 Aristotlean Elements would be cool.
 

DrunkonDuty said:
*The implications of real world racial determinism in Howard's stuff does make my modern, 21st C sensibilities crawl with discomfort.

If it makes you feel any better, fantasy is chok full of ideas that were used to justify the torture and murder of millions of people over the centuries. In fact, the concept of evil itself as it is represented in fantasy could probably be seen as a root cause of religious wars, inquisitions, cruelty towards the mentally ill, cruelty towards people who are disfigured, etc. One could become uncomfortable if you took note of how often villains' physical appearances were evocative of certain ethnic physical types (though it changes at times based on current fashion - Nosferatu I'm looking at you). Or think about how often wolves, sharks, etc. are stereotyped as evil creatures and the consequence to how people relate to their environment and the extinction of species.

Then again, would fantasy be any fun if it was diluted too much with sensitivity and nuance? I don't consider dwarves, orcs, et. al. to be like human "races" and so I feel that it gives me a "safe" way to play around with biases and mythological ideas that would otherwise be distasteful if applied to humans. Or I used wargs in place of wolves so I can avoid the discomfort of having wolves behave in ways that would offend a zoologist. Concepts that IMO are really based on man's inherent ignorance of his surroundings and other people might be paradoxically the most vivid elements to work with in an RPG. I honestly hope that the real women who were unjustly burnt at the stake based on ideas that I consider barbaric in real life will forgive me for using the witch stereo-type as a villain because IMO it's just so darn cool.
 

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