worlds and monsters is in my hands

[TwoSix]

Sure, do that. And give DM's like me a "noncombat stat block" where they have skills and alignments and environments and ally creatures already mentioned for me.

And I'd be a happy little pea in a pod.

But the talk so far says "Give me a streamlined monster with no information other than the barebones combat stuff!" and that, for me, blows.

I've read this whole thread, and I don't think anyone has espoused a MM full of nothing but stat blocks. Indeed, if this is the case, I'll be hopping mad also.

What most people object is the abilities like Blacksmithing +20 and "Casts animate dead once a week as a ritual." right in the stat block next to important things like HP and AC.

 

[mhensley]

My local book store finally go this in today and I had a chance to read a bit. I must say that I agree 110% with the part about the problems with 3.x monsters and encounters. I'm running a 10th lvl 3.5 game right now and everything they said is very evident and annoying. Groups of low level monsters are useless as they can barely hit anyone. Big monsters don't have enough actions and don't do enough damage to be a real danger to the party. Most encounters are just too fragile- if the monster doesn't take someone down in round one by surprise, it gets overwhelmed by the party by round 2 or 3.

 

[Just Another User]

Ok here's the significant details on the remainder of the book:

The Elemental Chaos:

An evolution of the inner planes better suited to adventuring (and not just one homogenous mass of element) - more dangerous than lethal.
[...]

Ok, I just want to put in my 2 cents, probably I'm in a miniority in this but, all this setting, this new planes, yes, they are nice, even *ugh* Cool, but it a all just sound "fake" to me, it sound artificious, it is not a setting, it is more a theme park, with all his carousels, here there are the dungeons, here there are the elemental planes, there the god's domains and far realms, all tidy, clean, organized and easily accessibile, make so that you can enter in them to have adventures that they will be dangerous, but not too much. and every monster will have a place and a purpose, so that it will be easily (but not too much) defeated.

Yes, yes, I'm exagerating a little, but that is the feeling I get from the setting, something fake, just made up so PCs will have an excuse to go adventuring, yes, all setting are, more or less, created for that reason, but here seems they are not even trying to hide it. Many probably have no problem with this.

But I do. It is like to see the wires in a wuxia movie, it takes away most, if not all, of the fun.

mmh, yeah, that's all.

bye.

 

[Stogoe]

As opposed to the completely orderly Wheel of Alignments that's supposed to be half lawful and half chaotic, a clockwork march of Lawful Good to Goodly Lawful to Goodish to Slightly Less Lawful good, etc round and round.

I mean, that seems pretty 'artificial' to me.

 

[Sir Brennen]

You only know that the design purpose is to make places more suitable for adventuring is because you're reading the preview material, or forum commentary about such material, which includes the designer's explaining "why we did it this way."

It's like watching the DVD extras for a Wuxia movie, which show how they did the special effects, and complaining that you can see the wires there.

You want your wires hidden? Wait until the PHB and MM come out, and read those. The DMG I'm thinking will still have some wires showing, as it will probably contain advice on doing things yourself. But you can probably skip those sections, too.

Me, I like these explanations, and knowing that at higher levels, some planes aren't just "cool sounding places that you'll never survive in, even if you had a reason to go there." And, as Stogoe points out, the new planar mythology feels much more organic and "real world" than the Great Wheel, which was first-and-foremost built around a game mechanic - alignment - then had a hodge-podge of deities crammed into it, and rarely in a logical fashion.

 

[Just Another User]

As opposed to the completely orderly Wheel of Alignments that's supposed to be half lawful and half chaotic, a clockwork march of Lawful Good to Goodly Lawful to Goodish to Slightly Less Lawful good, etc round and round.

I mean, that seems pretty 'artificial' to me.

As opposed to "nothing". Is it possible that every time someone make a critic to 4e the usual answer is "there was something like that even in previous editions"? So, because previous edition had problems is all right for 4e have problems, too? I thought that they made a new edition to try to *fix* problems.

And what is the problem with the big wheel anyway? alignements were part of the previous editions, they were pratically part of their laws of phisics, actually they were part of the natural world, it is just normal that the universe was structured around them, to complain that the Wheel seems artificial it is like complain that grativy or elettromagnetism feel artificial, things in previous edition works like that, period.(geez,I'm sure that in some parallel universe there is a fantasy RPG with rules that simulate gravity and people that complain that a thing like that is just too unrealistic )

Now, like I wrote in my message maybe you have no problem with it, and I'm fine with that, but to me things like the elemental planes that are calibrated so that PCs can easily go adventuring or the plane of shadow replaced by something else because it is more confortable to adventurers just sounds wrong, it ruin my SoD, why should be interested to what happen to my character if everything in the universe scream "it is all fake, it is just a game" to me? I know it is just a game, I don't need a continual reminder while I play, if all I wanted in D&D was tactical combat I'd play Baldur's gate or NWN.

 

[Sir Brennen]

As opposed to "nothing". Is it possible that every time someone make a critic to 4e the usual answer is "there was something like that even in previous editions"? So, because previous edition had problems is all right for 4e have problems, too? I thought that they made a new edition to try to *fix* problems.

By comparison, 4E *is* a fix. You're "alignments as part of the natural world" was something that was a constant thump on the head to many players, saying "this is an artificial game construct"!

If you want planes which are physically impossible to travel in, or that one Dispel Magic will result in a TPK, go ahead and add them to your campaign. But why would the PCs, or even their players, care?

 

[Plane Sailing]

And what is the problem with the big wheel anyway?

See many previous threads here about the wheel O' alignments for discussions about that!

Now, like I wrote in my message maybe you have no problem with it, and I'm fine with that, but to me things like the elemental planes that are calibrated so that PCs can easily go adventuring or the plane of shadow replaced by something else because it is more confortable to adventurers just sounds wrong,

But why should there be an elemental plane of earth that is just solid earth and rock? Why should there be an elemental plane of water that is just water?

Essentially they've simply got rid of those simplistic 'planes of element x' and used the 'Great Wheel' version of Limbo as the model for the source of elements. Most people consider Limbo to be an interesting place to set adventures - what with the swirling chaos, the mad surges of different elements and so forth.

It may be that the planar setup they created for Eberron recieved huge plaudits - an Orrerry of planes which eschewed having 'elemental planes', but did have some which are more closely associated with elements than others.

 

[Just Another User]

But why should there be an elemental plane of earth that is just solid earth and rock? Why should there be an elemental plane of water that is just water?

I don't know. Why the sun should be a big ball of nuclear plasma and the pression of the deep sea enough to crush a unprotected man? I suppose in 4E the surface of the sun is just luke-warm and you don't need to breath underwater or to fear deep pressure, how could you be able to have adventures there, else?

And I've read the articles, you don't need to explain them to me, I understand why they made the changes, i just disagree with their decisions.

and Eberron planes are still place hard to reach and very dangerous to visit, not the easily accesible place for an adventure that 4e planes seems to be.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I don't know. Why the sun should be a big ball of nuclear plasma and the pression of the deep sea enough to crush a unprotected man? I suppose in 4E the surface of the sun is just luke-warm and you don't need to breath underwater or to fear deep pressure, how could you be able to have adventures there, else?

If you want to model your sun and sea bottoms after their real-world counterparts, go ahead. It probably does help players relate to your fantasy world better. (Though I would content that plenty of D&D adventures and fantasy literature in general ignore issues of water pressure.) But what real world counterpart is your elemental plane of fire replicating? Oh, wait. Nothing. So, if you're starting from scratch, why make the plane inhospitable rather than someplace you might actually be able to set an adventure? As a fantasy concept, there's suspension of disbelief in either model, but one happens to be actually useful in playing the game and coming up with stories.

and Eberron planes are still place hard to reach and very dangerous to visit, not the easily accesible place for an adventure that 4e planes seems to be.

I think you're over-emphasizing the "easily accessible" idea. It's not like the local blacksmith jaunts over to the Elemental Tempest to get hot coals for his forge every week. They've mentioned the planes as places that might be occasionally visited for Paragon-level (10+) characters, and part of normal adventuring for Epic-level characters. To me, this doesn't seem too much out of line with previous editions. I also don't imagine that these places are so safe that one would go there without some magical precautions. The Eberron planes are probably a pretty good comparison.

And no, you can't place an adventure on the sun. It's just a hole in the celestial dome that the light of the Astral Sea shines through, so you couldn't actually land there, silly