BlueBlackRed
Explorer
Heh.
Can't say I'm surprised.
Just goes with what works best for you.
Can't say I'm surprised.
Just goes with what works best for you.
World's Largest Dungeon in actual play [Spoilers!]
- Thread starter haiiro
- Start date
BTW in my version Teleport and the like does not work through any of the original construction. New construction and destroyed portions can be teleported through normally. Basically assume that you can only teleport to Line Of Sight unless you are teleporting into some goblin's shack or somesuch.
jim pinto
First Post
teleportation
its actually covered in the book. if you read the blink dog entry, i believe it says LOS for teleportation and explain which regions where the wards have failed; in such cases, the PCs can teleport through the region ... just not out of it
(except the highest altitude in Region H)
...
in an unrelated thread, i started a discussion about players
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=154560&page=1&pp=40
Traevanon said:
its actually covered in the book. if you read the blink dog entry, i believe it says LOS for teleportation and explain which regions where the wards have failed; in such cases, the PCs can teleport through the region ... just not out of it
(except the highest altitude in Region H)
...
in an unrelated thread, i started a discussion about players
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=154560&page=1&pp=40
Last edited:
Qwillion
First Post
Ok sent that email. I hope that truly challenges them.
You know the more I think about it, the players are being intelligent. I would think though that word would get around Region N about these undead slayers.
In my world of building a better mouse trap. The only mice left are the ones who can defeat the better mouse trap. So the designer goes back to the board and builds a better mouse trap.
Ok so the real issue is death ward. The undead are complaining to thier Master who remebers a ritual from 5,000 years ago to deal with this paltry nuscience. It might require some things, that the players could see the undead gathering. It might require a specific action that the pc's could be tricked into doing. Then a fundamental shift in the nature of Death Ward.
Possible Effects
Death Ward only grants a Fort save (or will) vs. the negative energy (fair and balance approach)
Death ward durations are reduced by 50%. (a reverse on meta magic)
Death ward now only makes you immune to a # of effect equal to your caster level. (suprise your spell is overloaded and collapses)
Death Ward doubles all negative energy attacks and the spell cannot be dismissed. (evil bastich dms only)
A curse now affects anyone who casts Death Ward. (Pick a curse any curse)
Undead can now sense the prescence of anyone guarded by death ward (act appropriately)
Undead can now absorb all necromatic spells gaining a 1d8+1 temp hp per level of the spell. (death ward is necromatic not abjuration)
X castings of death ward unleash the World Eater. (lets move along shall we)
Casting death ward now consumes the casters divine focus. (power has a cost)
All castings of Death Ward are transmuted into Slay Living. (the really evil bastich dm)
Hmmm.... I like this so much I am going to use this when my players get to Region N.
I think I will use the rules for a magical event from DMG II
LORE: One of the Big 3 knows all about this, the others might have bits and pieces. Most of the undead have been around long enough to know about it but have no idea how to use it the players might start hearing the undead talking about the event. This should give it the sound of myth and legend with a little false lore thrown in (like one of the evil bastich ideas).
POWER: Ok a # of possible power souces for the event are in region N. The necromatic magic of the region, The negative energry of the region, the wards that guard the region, the evil of the region, and the power of the world eater.
CATALYST: a small object, portable, mundane but rare here. It should be of the highest craftmanship but pure in it's simplicity. I am thinking a simple golden orb.
TRIGGER: Ok, I am thinking that only a living creature can pull this off, otherwise the undead would be doing it all the time. I think the should have to place the special object in a special place. I don't think time should be a factor other than perhaps a duration of the effect, I think the effect will only last for a year and a day. Nothing to the undead that live here.
With these thoughts in mind perhaps I can trick my PC's into creating the magical event for me. I can lay down disinformation though the undead ala "I hope they don't activate the celestial failsafe, the whole region would be engulfed by sunlight and the positive energy plane"
I think I can set it up to look like the classic old rpg way to defeat the an entire region. If they are lucky I will leave some very subtle clues to one player that this might be wrong. hehehhehe if they are really lucky I won't make it the most unobsurvent memeber of thier group.
If it goes off then this will be the effects (I am combining)
Casting death ward now consumes the casters divine focus. (power has a cost)
A curse now affects anyone who casts Death Ward. (Pick a curse any curse)
Undead can now sense the prescence of anyone guarded by death ward (act appropriately)
Death Ward doubles all negative energy attacks and the spell cannot be dismissed. (evil bastich dms only)
I think this will put a big red flag that death ward is bad, the player will not cast it again right away and only one character is going to be chased down for having death ward on him.
ENDING EVENT: I think I will even give the players a chance to end the event if they gather all the pieces together that release the world eater but then again I am a bastich dm.
What do you guys think.
Just a note, death ward is pretty basic spell it makes me wonder how well this region was playtested.
You know the more I think about it, the players are being intelligent. I would think though that word would get around Region N about these undead slayers.
In my world of building a better mouse trap. The only mice left are the ones who can defeat the better mouse trap. So the designer goes back to the board and builds a better mouse trap.
Ok so the real issue is death ward. The undead are complaining to thier Master who remebers a ritual from 5,000 years ago to deal with this paltry nuscience. It might require some things, that the players could see the undead gathering. It might require a specific action that the pc's could be tricked into doing. Then a fundamental shift in the nature of Death Ward.
Possible Effects
Death Ward only grants a Fort save (or will) vs. the negative energy (fair and balance approach)
Death ward durations are reduced by 50%. (a reverse on meta magic)
Death ward now only makes you immune to a # of effect equal to your caster level. (suprise your spell is overloaded and collapses)
Death Ward doubles all negative energy attacks and the spell cannot be dismissed. (evil bastich dms only)
A curse now affects anyone who casts Death Ward. (Pick a curse any curse)
Undead can now sense the prescence of anyone guarded by death ward (act appropriately)
Undead can now absorb all necromatic spells gaining a 1d8+1 temp hp per level of the spell. (death ward is necromatic not abjuration)
X castings of death ward unleash the World Eater. (lets move along shall we)
Casting death ward now consumes the casters divine focus. (power has a cost)
All castings of Death Ward are transmuted into Slay Living. (the really evil bastich dm)
Hmmm.... I like this so much I am going to use this when my players get to Region N.
I think I will use the rules for a magical event from DMG II
LORE: One of the Big 3 knows all about this, the others might have bits and pieces. Most of the undead have been around long enough to know about it but have no idea how to use it the players might start hearing the undead talking about the event. This should give it the sound of myth and legend with a little false lore thrown in (like one of the evil bastich ideas).
POWER: Ok a # of possible power souces for the event are in region N. The necromatic magic of the region, The negative energry of the region, the wards that guard the region, the evil of the region, and the power of the world eater.
CATALYST: a small object, portable, mundane but rare here. It should be of the highest craftmanship but pure in it's simplicity. I am thinking a simple golden orb.
TRIGGER: Ok, I am thinking that only a living creature can pull this off, otherwise the undead would be doing it all the time. I think the should have to place the special object in a special place. I don't think time should be a factor other than perhaps a duration of the effect, I think the effect will only last for a year and a day. Nothing to the undead that live here.
With these thoughts in mind perhaps I can trick my PC's into creating the magical event for me. I can lay down disinformation though the undead ala "I hope they don't activate the celestial failsafe, the whole region would be engulfed by sunlight and the positive energy plane"
I think I can set it up to look like the classic old rpg way to defeat the an entire region. If they are lucky I will leave some very subtle clues to one player that this might be wrong. hehehhehe if they are really lucky I won't make it the most unobsurvent memeber of thier group.
If it goes off then this will be the effects (I am combining)
Casting death ward now consumes the casters divine focus. (power has a cost)
A curse now affects anyone who casts Death Ward. (Pick a curse any curse)
Undead can now sense the prescence of anyone guarded by death ward (act appropriately)
Death Ward doubles all negative energy attacks and the spell cannot be dismissed. (evil bastich dms only)
I think this will put a big red flag that death ward is bad, the player will not cast it again right away and only one character is going to be chased down for having death ward on him.
ENDING EVENT: I think I will even give the players a chance to end the event if they gather all the pieces together that release the world eater but then again I am a bastich dm.
What do you guys think.
Just a note, death ward is pretty basic spell it makes me wonder how well this region was playtested.
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BlueBlackRed
Explorer
Thanks for the creature. I definitely like the honorable undead knight kind of thing. Though it probably won't make it into the region until the final fight. Makes for a more dramatic ending.Qwillion said:
As for removing Death Ward simply because they're using it or punishing them because they're using it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Now punishing them for relying on it is another thing. Dispel Magics and spells that get around Death Ward at key points is what I will have when dealing with the party.
Never punish players for being clever, but freely punish them for thinking they are too clever and getting lazy because of it.
In the final fight, the undead waves from the world eater will have a chance to blast away any protection the party may have (Death Wards, Protection from X, Antimagic Shell, etc.). I just have to pick the appropriate DC.
Yes Death Ward can shut down big chunks of region N, but without it, the party would have died long ago.
I'm interested to hear how parties with only one cleric are dealing with N.
Qwillion
First Post
"Thanks for the creature. I definitely like the honorable undead knight kind of thing. Though it probably won't make it into the region until the final fight. Makes for a more dramatic ending."
Your welcome, I am glad you enjoyed it. Sorry it was just the playtest pdf, when we get the final formating done I will send that along. I really did try to fold the idea of honor in with it's abilites.
I don't want to punish my players, but I do want it to remain a challenge, if they figure out that completing the magical event is a bad idea then they can overcome it.
Your welcome, I am glad you enjoyed it. Sorry it was just the playtest pdf, when we get the final formating done I will send that along. I really did try to fold the idea of honor in with it's abilites.
I don't want to punish my players, but I do want it to remain a challenge, if they figure out that completing the magical event is a bad idea then they can overcome it.
pokedigimaniac
First Post
Hmm. I've run into a bit of a dilemma.
Earlier in the thread, I really liked the idea of replacing Longtail (Region A) with a Kyton, as well as the other details of that encounter. I'm running two groups through the WLD, so I figured I would use the Kyton for one and Longtail for the other.
One of my groups has been doing fine, save a high attrition rate - three out of the four original party members are now dead, and have been replaced by both new characters and orcs from the remainder of the orc clan that has allied with them. This is the one that I was thinking of running Longtail for.
The other group is far more balanced than the first one, and has managed to ally with the kobolds and the lizardmen (the alliance is tenuous, though...) and has cleaned out most of the region with no casualties. I had intended to run the kyton encounter for them, both as a change of pace (they've fought a bearded devil in this region before, so it won't be a complete shock) and as a way to thin the ranks of their army a little bit... get rid of some kobolds, probably, if nothing else.
The problem with this setup is that the second group ran into a really bad RPing snag last week, where I had to cut the session short because people were cranky and tired OOC, which was bleeding into their characters. One of the characters' greatest desires for the last two or three sessions has been "to ballsap Longtail." Yes, he's that nasty.
Another character, the paladin, wants to cleanse the evil from the region. The final two members could care less, to be honest - they're more interested in their own things, which include escaping and collecting gems.
Anyways, this RPing snag blew up into a bit of unpleasantness between the players and myself, which I've spent most of the week reconciling. One of my players had this to say just a moment ago:
Player: Oh, just another thing, I think the whole D&D slump will go away once we actually finish our encounter with Longtail.
Player: I think we're all looking forward to that in and out of character, so the sooner we get to it the better.
Me: That was my thinking as well.
Me: Believe me, I've been looking forward to that encounter as well. ^^
Me: Hmm.
Me: I just have to do some thinking now. X_X
Me: But, anyhow, thanks for dropping me the IM.
Player: No prob.
So here's my dilemma. I think that as they are, the group will crush Longtail readily - they have the numbers and the inclination, (the kobolds REALLY want to kill Longtail at this point) and could just charge him with all hands and grapple/sneak attack him into nothing. (Granted, he has some ways for getting around this, but even so... Fly doesn't save him, as nearly all of the party is equipped with ranged weapons and can do some serious damage with them)
I guess what I'm looking for here are two things. First, opinions on whether I should switch the encounters so that the second party goes against Longtail and the first goes against the kyton, or leave it as I had originally planned. (The trouble is that I've already laid foreshadowed hints that something's not quite right up where they believe Longtail to be...) Second, suggestions on how to run Longtail effectively to present a good challenge to a Level 4 party (gnome paladin, gnome sorceror, halfling rogue, xeph soulknife), along with 7 kobolds (includes one Level 4 kobold wizard, one Level 2 kobold rogue, five Level 3 kobold warriors, and one Level 2 kobold expert) and 2 lizardfolk (one Level 3 druid and one Level 3 ranger). [Yeah, it's a ridiculous army, I know. Another reason to run the kyton, as it will thin the ranks of the kobolds considerably.)
I'm not sure how much of Longtail's stats I can copy here (copyright reasons and all that jazz), but I'll at least copy some of the basic things:
Longtail, Wererat Sor 7
Spells known:
0 - acid splash, daze, detect magic, light, mage hand, ray of frost, read magic
1 - detect secret doors, expeditious retreat, magic missile, shield, sleep
2 - blur, eagle's splendor, invisibility
3 - dispel magic, fly
As written, he enters having expeditious retreat, shield, and eagle's splendor all cast already on him. Fly is one possibility, but I already mentioned the ranged weapons previously. Invisibility is another, but they have the paladin's Detect Evil at will. Of course, they'll also have to contend with the constantly-invisible imp familiar that keeps stinging them, so there's THAT, at least.
Anyhow, I've written enough. Any and all thoughts and tips would be appreciated, as I run tomorrow at 4:30 EST. Thanks in advance!
Earlier in the thread, I really liked the idea of replacing Longtail (Region A) with a Kyton, as well as the other details of that encounter. I'm running two groups through the WLD, so I figured I would use the Kyton for one and Longtail for the other.
One of my groups has been doing fine, save a high attrition rate - three out of the four original party members are now dead, and have been replaced by both new characters and orcs from the remainder of the orc clan that has allied with them. This is the one that I was thinking of running Longtail for.
The other group is far more balanced than the first one, and has managed to ally with the kobolds and the lizardmen (the alliance is tenuous, though...) and has cleaned out most of the region with no casualties. I had intended to run the kyton encounter for them, both as a change of pace (they've fought a bearded devil in this region before, so it won't be a complete shock) and as a way to thin the ranks of their army a little bit... get rid of some kobolds, probably, if nothing else.
The problem with this setup is that the second group ran into a really bad RPing snag last week, where I had to cut the session short because people were cranky and tired OOC, which was bleeding into their characters. One of the characters' greatest desires for the last two or three sessions has been "to ballsap Longtail." Yes, he's that nasty.
Another character, the paladin, wants to cleanse the evil from the region. The final two members could care less, to be honest - they're more interested in their own things, which include escaping and collecting gems.Anyways, this RPing snag blew up into a bit of unpleasantness between the players and myself, which I've spent most of the week reconciling. One of my players had this to say just a moment ago:
Player: Oh, just another thing, I think the whole D&D slump will go away once we actually finish our encounter with Longtail.
Player: I think we're all looking forward to that in and out of character, so the sooner we get to it the better.
Me: That was my thinking as well.
Me: Believe me, I've been looking forward to that encounter as well. ^^
Me: Hmm.
Me: I just have to do some thinking now. X_X
Me: But, anyhow, thanks for dropping me the IM.
Player: No prob.
So here's my dilemma. I think that as they are, the group will crush Longtail readily - they have the numbers and the inclination, (the kobolds REALLY want to kill Longtail at this point) and could just charge him with all hands and grapple/sneak attack him into nothing. (Granted, he has some ways for getting around this, but even so... Fly doesn't save him, as nearly all of the party is equipped with ranged weapons and can do some serious damage with them)
I guess what I'm looking for here are two things. First, opinions on whether I should switch the encounters so that the second party goes against Longtail and the first goes against the kyton, or leave it as I had originally planned. (The trouble is that I've already laid foreshadowed hints that something's not quite right up where they believe Longtail to be...) Second, suggestions on how to run Longtail effectively to present a good challenge to a Level 4 party (gnome paladin, gnome sorceror, halfling rogue, xeph soulknife), along with 7 kobolds (includes one Level 4 kobold wizard, one Level 2 kobold rogue, five Level 3 kobold warriors, and one Level 2 kobold expert) and 2 lizardfolk (one Level 3 druid and one Level 3 ranger). [Yeah, it's a ridiculous army, I know. Another reason to run the kyton, as it will thin the ranks of the kobolds considerably.)
I'm not sure how much of Longtail's stats I can copy here (copyright reasons and all that jazz), but I'll at least copy some of the basic things:
Longtail, Wererat Sor 7
Spells known:
0 - acid splash, daze, detect magic, light, mage hand, ray of frost, read magic
1 - detect secret doors, expeditious retreat, magic missile, shield, sleep
2 - blur, eagle's splendor, invisibility
3 - dispel magic, fly
As written, he enters having expeditious retreat, shield, and eagle's splendor all cast already on him. Fly is one possibility, but I already mentioned the ranged weapons previously. Invisibility is another, but they have the paladin's Detect Evil at will. Of course, they'll also have to contend with the constantly-invisible imp familiar that keeps stinging them, so there's THAT, at least.
Anyhow, I've written enough. Any and all thoughts and tips would be appreciated, as I run tomorrow at 4:30 EST. Thanks in advance!
Qwillion
First Post
Well I ran the longtail encounter,
I gave him a scroll of improved invisibility.
replaced dispel magic with fireball
Had fly and invisiblity cast before they entered the room, (they made plenty of noise)
Use the scroll of invisibility
Thier little army died to the fireballs. (Including thier donkey)
a few rounds into the combat the improved invis wore off.
Then the fight went,
cast magic missle
next round cast invisibilty move as far away as possible
cast magic missle
repeat untill really hurt
cast invisibility run away.
The just entered Region E hunting longtail with a weasl familiar tracking by scent.
I gave him a scroll of improved invisibility.
replaced dispel magic with fireball
Had fly and invisiblity cast before they entered the room, (they made plenty of noise)
Use the scroll of invisibility
Thier little army died to the fireballs. (Including thier donkey)
a few rounds into the combat the improved invis wore off.
Then the fight went,
cast magic missle
next round cast invisibilty move as far away as possible
cast magic missle
repeat untill really hurt
cast invisibility run away.
The just entered Region E hunting longtail with a weasl familiar tracking by scent.
BlueBlackRed
Explorer
Replace Blur with Protection from Arrows and keep Longtail aloft with Fly for as long as possible.pokedigimaniac said:
Don't let him get too powerful by giving him Fireball unless your PCs can handle that kind of firepower.
The goal is to make him just tough enough to force your PCs to use every resource they have to bring him down.
To me, an awesome fight is where the party is about out of options when they bring down the boss.
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jim pinto
First Post
pokedigimaniac said:
one the best weapons in longtail's arsenal is invisibility, and his ability to cast it over and over
his damage reduction 5/silver is great too
if you're going with kyton, neither of those abilities are as important, but a single boss fighting ANY group is going to suffer more hits in a round than he can dish out. the only cure for this is a lot of hit points or damage reduction... the pcs should NOT be able to squash longtail in under 10 rounds.
this needs to be a good hardy challenge so the pcs understand the threat potential of the dungeon. and to put a nice cap on this region.
and fireball is perfect for cleaning up the kobold army.
beyond that, i have no idea which version of longtail is going to work best for your group... if they don't like LONG challenges, don't use the kyton.
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